Fraggle Test Prop/Tren Ace Log

[Fraggle]

OK,

It seems a number of people are posting logs for the benefit of the community and the feedback I see is inspiring and thoughtful. Solo has some wonderfully incisive advice.

This is the current cycle (started May 9th):

1) goal => 20lbs lean mass, no water weight
2) complete HPTA recovery w/ test taper

ED injections at 6AM (except start day -- required evening dosing for fasting/clean blood work in the morning)

8 week cycle
4 week stasis
6 week taper

Weeks 1-8
Test Prop 60mg/day
Tren Ace 60mg/day

Weeks 9-12
Test Prop 15mg/day

Week 13
Test Prop 12mg/day

Week 14
Test Prop 9mg/day

Week 15
Test Prop 6mg/day

Week 16
Test Prop 4mg/day

Week 17
Test Prop 2mg/day

Week 18
Test Prop 1mg/day

Hopefully this can give some definitive feedback to those who are interested but nervous about the using a test taper for PCT. I had blood work drawn last friday. Unfortunately, only the CBC, metabolic panel, lipid profile, assorted vitamins and estradiol are back. Still waiting for Total T, Free T, LH and FSH.

The only thing of concern is that HDL is a little low and LDL a little high. 22 and 109 respectively for a ratio of 7.0 where <=5.0 is ideal, but this isn't really into the realm of concern yet. I'll be watching this during and post cycle carefully to ensure that it doesn't get much worse. I'm going to add garlic extract, this mimics the action of HDL in the body, helping to scrub the arteries of plaque buildup.

Estradiol is 17pg/ml, at the low end of normal.

I'll post the other hormones when the come in.

At the end of the 8 weeks, half way through taper and 2 weeks post taper I'll get additional hormone panels w/ SHBG, so that you can see the clear indication and functionality of a taper protocol.

At the dosages used above I have no expectation to require an AI, but if I experience ANY water weight, I will introduce exemestane at 6.25mg/day.

My caloric intake is 3.5k, 300-350g protein a day (150g as whey). I limit carbs, using predominantly fructose based simple sugars and complex carbs (I have crohn's disease...). My fat intake is predominantly based on nuts, olive oil and Udo's high lignan blend, with milk, cheese and cottage cheese as supplementry dairy based fat and protein. I also take a complex multivitamin and 100mg diphenhydramine at night for sleep.

I can also report pre and post bone density scans for those interested on calcium deposition in the bones during testosterone use.

Workout schedule is whole body EOD, always including:
deadlift
squat
bench presses
chest-supported rows
DB flyes
military presses
preacher curls
decline crunches w/ medicine ball

I also use cable work for variety and spot training of triceps, biceps, lats, delts and obliques.

I alternate between explosive movement with 4 reps at 85+ % of max for 8-10 sets for two weeks and 8-10 reps for 4 sets at 70+ % max for two weeks for each exercise with no more then 60-90 seconds between sets. Occasionally I superset for more intensity, or dropset for more volume.

I also do ~5 min bike cardio as part of my warmup. I developed tendonitis in my knee from hard running on pavement (~32min/5miles/day), so I'm limited to startionary bike or swimming. Irrespective, I find my cardiovascular capacity is much reduced during trenbolone use.

But that shouldn't stop others from including cardio. There is a great deal of medical literature supporting the concept that the body preferentially chooses aerobic capacity over strength when those two forms of exercise are separated into different workouts, say strength one day, cardio the next, etc...

You can however get the benefits of both by including them in the SAME workout.

So for all those who don't do cardio because they want to get big, start including it either at the beginning or end of the workout, possibly depending on muscle groups exercised. i.e. if you do legs, do it at the end, not the beginning to keep glycogen and phosphocreatine stores high in the muscles during the strength portion of the workout.

This can be of great importance when using AAS as cardio helps with HLD/LDL ratios.

 

[LifeSize]

I'll be watching you..20lbs in 8 weeks is a lot, because you have a significant drop in dose after stasis...

If I could get the blood work done, regularly and cost effective I would try out the taper method. It would save me some bucks on Nolva/Adex/HCG..

 

[dennis]

Very thorough info Fraggle..but also very unorthodox to most of us.This will be very interesting to keep up with and very informative.Any use of hcg in your plan..and how about pct after taper???I agree with you about the cardio when doing bulking cycle..too much can be a problem but small amount is needed.I like to do 20 minutes cardio before I lift weights..that way my heart rate goes up and stays that way through the next hour of lifting.Guess you have brewed your own prop and ace huh ??!!

 

[musle mafia]

Well glad to see someone is going to do a log doing a test taper cycle. I know people who swear by it. Mostly older guys who've been doing this for a while. What I have yet to see is tested levels throughout the taper and after the cycle to see how well it works conpared to the normal PCT of Nolva/HCG/Clomid. You have stroked my intrest. Good Post. I'll be watching

 

[shreddedwheat]

Fraggle,
I'm interested to know if this same protocol will work with Test Enanthate? Would you inject each day with the enanthate as you would with the Propianate? I have 40ml of Test E @ 300mg/ml and 40ml of Tren Ace at 75mg/ml. I also have Stanazol; however I'm not concerned with the Stana, just whether or not you can do the same thing with enanthate.
Thanks,
Shredded Wheat.

 

[advanced-stealth]

Nice to see people posting logs.

OK,

It seems a number of people are posting logs for the benefit of the community and the feedback I see is inspiring and thoughtful. Solo has some wonderfully incisive advice.

This is the current cycle (started May 9th):

1) goal => 20lbs lean mass, no water weight
2) complete HPTA recovery w/ test taper

ED injections at 6AM (except start day -- required evening dosing for fasting/clean blood work in the morning)

8 week cycle
4 week stasis
6 week taper

Weeks 1-8
Test Prop 60mg/day
Tren Ace 60mg/day

Weeks 9-12
Test Prop 15mg/day

Week 13
Test Prop 12mg/day

Week 14
Test Prop 9mg/day

Week 15
Test Prop 6mg/day

Week 16
Test Prop 4mg/day

Week 17
Test Prop 2mg/day

Week 18
Test Prop 1mg/day

Hopefully this can give some definitive feedback to those who are interested but nervous about the using a test taper for PCT. I had blood work drawn last friday. Unfortunately, only the CBC, metabolic panel, lipid profile, assorted vitamins and estradiol are back. Still waiting for Total T, Free T, LH and FSH.

The only thing of concern is that HDL is a little low and LDL a little high. 22 and 109 respectively for a ratio of 7.0 where <=5.0 is ideal, but this isn't really into the realm of concern yet. I'll be watching this during and post cycle carefully to ensure that it doesn't get much worse. I'm going to add garlic extract, this mimics the action of HDL in the body, helping to scrub the arteries of plaque buildup.

Estradiol is 17pg/ml, at the low end of normal.

I'll post the other hormones when the come in.

At the end of the 8 weeks, half way through taper and 2 weeks post taper I'll get additional hormone panels w/ SHBG, so that you can see the clear indication and functionality of a taper protocol.

At the dosages used above I have no expectation to require an AI, but if I experience ANY water weight, I will introduce exemestane at 6.25mg/day.

My caloric intake is 3.5k, 300-350g protein a day (150g as whey). I limit carbs, using predominantly fructose based simple sugars and complex carbs (I have crohn's disease...). My fat intake is predominantly based on nuts, olive oil and Udo's high lignan blend, with milk, cheese and cottage cheese as supplementry dairy based fat and protein. I also take a complex multivitamin and 100mg diphenhydramine at night for sleep.

I can also report pre and post bone density scans for those interested on calcium deposition in the bones during testosterone use.

Workout schedule is whole body EOD, always including:
deadlift
squat
bench presses
chest-supported rows
DB flyes
military presses
preacher curls
decline crunches w/ medicine ball

I also use cable work for variety and spot training of triceps, biceps, lats, delts and obliques.

I alternate between explosive movement with 4 reps at 85+ % of max for 8-10 sets for two weeks and 8-10 reps for 4 sets at 70+ % max for two weeks for each exercise with no more then 60-90 seconds between sets. Occasionally I superset for more intensity, or dropset for more volume.

I also do ~5 min bike cardio as part of my warmup. I developed tendonitis in my knee from hard running on pavement (~32min/5miles/day), so I'm limited to startionary bike or swimming. Irrespective, I find my cardiovascular capacity is much reduced during trenbolone use.

But that shouldn't stop others from including cardio. There is a great deal of medical literature supporting the concept that the body preferentially chooses aerobic capacity over strength when those two forms of exercise are separated into different workouts, say strength one day, cardio the next, etc...

You can however get the benefits of both by including them in the SAME workout.

So for all those who don't do cardio because they want to get big, start including it either at the beginning or end of the workout, possibly depending on muscle groups exercised. i.e. if you do legs, do it at the end, not the beginning to keep glycogen and phosphocreatine stores high in the muscles during the strength portion of the workout.

This can be of great importance when using AAS as cardio helps with HLD/LDL ratios.

 

[HDH]

Interested to see how this turns out for you. Is this your first taper?

HDH

 

[dennis]

Fraggle,
I'm interested to know if this same protocol will work with Test Enanthate? Would you inject each day with the enanthate as you would with the Propianate? I have 40ml of Test E @ 300mg/ml and 40ml of Tren Ace at 75mg/ml. I also have Stanazol; however I'm not concerned with the Stana, just whether or not you can do the same thing with enanthate.
Thanks,
Shredded Wheat.

you would have to change your game plan using enth.

 

[shreddedwheat]

you would have to change your game plan using enth.

In what way Dennis? I've read and heard that every day injections reduce Tren sides significantly, so I'm leaning towards 60mg ED, rather than 75-100mg EOD. Just want to know should I continue as planned doing 300mg of Test E twice a week or should I do 150mg EOD or maybe 100mg ED?

As this will be my 1st cycle with Tren I want to keep it simple. By the way Fraggle, sorry for hijacking your thread. SW

 

[bigbench]

In what way Dennis? I've read and heard that every day injections reduce Tren sides significantly, so I'm leaning towards 60mg ED, rather than 75-100mg EOD. Just want to know should I continue as planned doing 300mg of Test E twice a week or should I do 150mg EOD or maybe 100mg ED?

As this will be my 1st cycle with Tren I want to keep it simple. By the way Fraggle, sorry for hijacking your thread. SW

The reason that you experience less sides with ED injections vs EOD is not just because they are more frequent, but because you are timing your injections better for the ester attached to the chem. When you inject a greater amount EOD then you have a peak and then a valley and so fourth. When you inject less and more frequently, then it is more of a constant and nice and level. Keeping hormone levels as constant as possible is the best way to manage sides. That is why for test E it was learned that instead of injecting once a week and having that valley, you should inject twice a week to keep blood levels stable

 

[Fraggle]

So, my blood work came back... My total test was 197ng/dL and my free test was 34.7. I'm going to delay my cycle to work with an endo and use delatestryl at 1-200mg/week. They're going to require blood tests at 6 weeks out, so shortly after that I will start the cycle...

I'll keep everyone posted on the endo TRT process in this thread.

My next appointment is Tuesday May 27 in the afternoon.

 

[LifeSize]

So, my blood work came back... My total test was 197ng/dL and my free test was 34.7. I'm going to delay my cycle to work with an endo and use delatestryl at 1-200mg/week. They're going to require blood tests at 6 weeks out, so shortly after that I will start the cycle...

I'll keep everyone posted on the endo TRT process in this thread.

My next appointment is Tuesday May 27 in the afternoon.

Damn odd as fuck, both Prop/Ace logs are on hold due to blood work..

 

[solo47]

So, my blood work came back... My total test was 197ng/dL and my free test was 34.7.

That's your free test or SHBG? Doesn't sound right to me. And your total test by my understanding is lower than that of an 80 year old.

I'm going by this chart. Maybe it's wrong?

Solo

 

[Fraggle]

Here's the results:

FSH 3.0 mIU/mL reference 1.6 - 8.0
LH 6.4 mIU/mL reference 1.5 - 9.3
Total T 197ng/dL reference 250 - 1100
Free T % 1.76 reference 1.5 - 2.2
Free T 34.7 pg/mL reference 35.0 - 155.0
Estradiol 17 pg/mL reference 13 - 54

My total test is very low, my free test as a percentage of total test is in the normal range. I didn't directly test SHBG, as this is indicated by inference through the % of free test to total test.

Usually in men the reduction in total testosterone occurs linearly from the third or fourth decade of life and is matched by an increase in SHBG -- estimated to be 13% per year in a cohort aged 40 years and over (Feldman et al., 2002).

The reduction in me has occured sometime between the age of 29-31, i.e. the last three years during which time I haven't cycled or been had my levels checked.

The pattern matched that for secondary hypogonadism, usually identified by low to normal levels of FSH and LH with low levels of test vs. primary hypogonadism , characterized by elevated levels of LH and FSH and low levels of testosterone.

The first test was conducted with a twelve hour fast (metabolic panel and lipid profile...) at 8 AM, I'll complete a second test on Tuesday at 8 AM to confirm the levels.

Retrospectively, this actually makes sense. While I haven't had any loss in libido, I have experienced some erectile disfunction (softer erections) and more difficulty putting on mass. Counter to low test levels, my body fat has consistently remained lower then 8%, altough there is a little more around the midline then when I was 20, but that's to be expected.

 

[Fraggle]

Oh yeah,

And I was well rested, don't drink and had sex the morning of the test. I avoid all the xenoestrogens I can and include both minerals and foods that boost levels of endogenous testosterone in my diet.

Ouch.

 

[LifeSize]

Oh yeah,

And I was well rested, don't drink and had sex the morning of the test. I avoid all the xenoestrogens I can and include both minerals and foods that boost levels of endogenous testosterone in my diet.

Ouch.

Can you elaborate some more on all that?? Like it was almost Chinese to me, and I'm Cuban b! [)]

/only stoner on meso..

 

[nd1024]

Fraggle,
I'm interested to know if this same protocol will work with Test Enanthate? Would you inject each day with the enanthate as you would with the Propianate? I have 40ml of Test E @ 300mg/ml and 40ml of Tren Ace at 75mg/ml. I also have Stanazol; however I'm not concerned with the Stana, just whether or not you can do the same thing with enanthate.
Thanks,
Shredded Wheat.

Test prop and Test enanth are to way differant esthers, prop bein g very short and enanth being very long.
Personally, I am old school, and this taper is interesting and it sounds like you have it very well planned out, but none the less, as long as you are injecting synthetic test into yourself, your natty test wuill NOT start to do its own thing until your body sees that it no longer HAS to produce any test at all. And then you are in for a long ass recovery. I am intertested though, as it is not my body that is the guenia pig.
Tren and prop for 8 weeks though, pure love baby. This is by far my most favorite cycle of all as you are getting the most pure test, next to base, and tren-acetate is, well, I am getting all teared up thinking about the days of my tren cycles. I love tren.
So why not do 75mg a day of tren and 100mg of test, at least 75 mg of test a day?
I need to finish reading your post fragile.

SO I started to answer to this thread before reading your whole first post fragile. I apologize for that.
You are smart to see an endocrinologist before you do anything. And also I didnt see your stats, just a diet plan and workout schedule. How old are you, what is your cycle experience, how much do you weigh, and where did you come up with the idea to do this taper type of cycle that has been proven to be utterly non effective in regards to a speedier recovery? I am sorry to be the negative here, but it sounds like you have health issues, I meaChrons is not something to put on a back burner while doing things with tren. I dont know about any of you oiut there, but tren, as much as I love it, has the most ridiculous sides and not to mention the mental sides also. Have you ever done tren? You either love it or hate it. Not sure how it will affect your chrons, but your in for a ride with this prop/tren cycle.
You sound as though you are very well informed on nutrition and how certain supps affect you, but as low as your test level is, and as said earlier in this thread, its as low as , well maybe not an 80 YO man, but none the less, too low for what sounds like someone who is not 80 YO.
You are quoting things from what sounds like medical journals, but what we do in this community of ours, AAS, is a little more clandestine than what you will read from a doctors perspective.
Bloodwork gives the ultamate, written in stone answers to how we are responding to certain drugs, AAS, peptides, and conditions, (chron's).
You picked a good name for your user name, fragile. If I was you, I would definately do what your doing and put this expoeriment on hold, indefinately, and unless your test levels are low due to a recent cycle, then you should be more concerned with your health rather than even thinking about compounds like tren.
Just my .002

 

[LifeSize]

Test prop and Test enanth are to way differant esthers, prop bein g very short and enanth being very long.
Personally, I am old school, and this taper is interesting and it sounds like you have it very well planned out, but none the less, as long as you are injecting synthetic test into yourself, your natty test wuill NOT start to do its own thing until your body sees that it no longer HAS to produce any test at all. And then you are in for a long ass recovery. I am intertested though, as it is not my body that is the guenia pig.
Tren and prop for 8 weeks though, pure love baby. This is by far my most favorite cycle of all as you are getting the most pure test, next to base, and tren-acetate is, well, I am getting all teared up thinking about the days of my tren cycles. I love tren.
So why not do 75mg a day of tren and 100mg of test, at least 75 mg of test a day?
I need to finish reading your post fragile.

SO I started to answer to this thread before reading your whole first post fragile. I apologize for that.
You are smart to see an endocrinologist before you do anything. And also I didnt see your stats, just a diet plan and workout schedule. How old are you, what is your cycle experience, how much do you weigh, and where did you come up with the idea to do this taper type of cycle that has been proven to be utterly non effective in regards to a speedier recovery? I am sorry to be the negative here, but it sounds like you have health issues, I meaChrons is not something to put on a back burner while doing things with tren. I dont know about any of you oiut there, but tren, as much as I love it, has the most ridiculous sides and not to mention the mental sides also. Have you ever done tren? You either love it or hate it. Not sure how it will affect your chrons, but your in for a ride with this prop/tren cycle.
You sound as though you are very well informed on nutrition and how certain supps affect you, but as low as your test level is, and as said earlier in this thread, its as low as , well maybe not an 80 YO man, but none the less, too low for what sounds like someone who is not 80 YO.
You are quoting things from what sounds like medical journals, but what we do in this community of ours, AAS, is a little more clandestine than what you will read from a doctors perspective.
Bloodwork gives the ultamate, written in stone answers to how we are responding to certain drugs, AAS, peptides, and conditions, (chron's).
You picked a good name for your user name, fragile. If I was you, I would definately do what your doing and put this expoeriment on hold, indefinately, and unless your test levels are low due to a recent cycle, then you should be more concerned with your health rather than even thinking about compounds like tren.
Just my .002

that 'Fragile' guy sounds like he needs to read the Phreezer FAQ again..

[)]

 

[Fraggle]

Today is my follow up appointment re: low test levels.

I've been having a few concerns that it's possible someone on this forum with TRT experience can help with.

My primary issue is that I am quite young, 31, and would like to have children sometime in the next few years. I can only find contradicting research with respect to long-term androgen replacement and fertility. It seems in some cases it actually increases fertility and in others it requires the complete removal of the androgens, high doses of HCG and then possibly recombinant FSH if no conception occurs within 6-12 months of HCG treatment..

This seems like a catch 22, as the removal of the exogenous testosterone is going to cause a decrease in libido and ED is going to become a problem again. Levitra seems to work well for me... but it's ridiculously expensive, as is FSH. Thankfully, I will either be residing in Australia or the UK where medicare/NHS covers fertility treatment costs (although with long queuing and a capped limit).

Anyway, for those with input on long-term exogenous androgen replacement and fertility please chime in with your experience and wisdom.

Oh, and as for the crohn's, or course it's a serious issue, but:

A) Would you let that stop you from achieving what you want?

B) I've been in remission for five (5) years.

C) I'm pretty fucking sure I know more about my body and it's function that you do.

 

[Fraggle]

Postscript...

My wife is hypothyrodic which presents it's own host of fertility related issues. Does anyone have information or experience with respect to maintaining thyroid hormone levels during pregnancy for a woman? We've already dealt with miscarriages due to this. They're both emotionally and physically painful, anything that could ameliorate this would be fantastic.

Clearly levels of T4 need to be carefully watched and maintained, but with such a long half-life for levothyroxine it's makes it difficult to adjust quickly to the changing levels of hormones during pregnancy.