HCG during/after 'argument' and confusion from sites

Neodavid

New Member
the drug profile sections says about HCG:

"It therefore is useful for maintaining testosterone production and/or testicle size during a steroid cycle. Use of this drug in the taper is rather counterproductive, since the resulting increased testosterone production is itself inhibitory to the hypothalamus and pituitary, delaying recovery. Thus, if this drug is used, it is preferably used during the cycle itself. A daily amount of 500 IU is generally sufficient, and in my opinion usage should not exceed 1000 IU per day."


But interestingly, reading here in the forum so far, I get the idea most guys prefer to post cycle it.

Any thoughts from those who have tried?

And secondarily, I notice most guys talk about HCG on an ED basis, but I found this on the web which seems to indicate HCG won't really desensitize you to Lutenizing hormone:

"6000 I.U. of HCG in a single injection resulted in elevated testosterone levels for six days after the injection. At a dosage of 1500 I.U. the pharmatestosterone level increases by 250-300% (2.5-3fold) com-pared to the initial value. The athlete should inject one HCG ampule every 5 days. Since the testosterone level remains considerably elevated for several days, it is unnecessary to inject HCG more than once every 5 days. The effective dosage for ath-letes is usually 2000-5000 I.U. per injection and should-as al-ready mentioned-be injected every 5 days. HCG should only be taken for a few weeks. If HCG is taken by male athletes over many weeks and in high dosages, it is possible that the testes will respond poorly to a later HCG intake and a release of the body's own LH. This could result in a permanent inadequate gonadal function. "

And then finally, anyone care to comment on taking HCG DURING a cycle? Is the problem increased sides as stated below??

"HCG can in part cause side effects similar to those of injectable testosterone. A higher testosterone production also goes hand in hand with an elevated estrogen level which could result in gynecomastia. This could manifest itself in a temporary growth of breasts or reinforce already existing breast growth in men. Farsighted athletes thus combine HCG with an antiestrogen. "

This part confused me somewhat. I thought Clomid WAS an anti-estrogen... yet here it says:

"Athletes who have already increased their endogenous test-osterone level by taking Clomid and intend subsequently to take HCG could experience considerable water retention and distinct feminization symptoms (gynecomastia, tendency toward fat de-posits on the hips). This is due to the fact that high testosterone leads to a high conversion rate to estrogens. In very young ath-letes HCG, like anabolic steroids, can cause an early stunting of growth since it prematurely closes the epiphysial growth plates. Mood swings and high blood pressure can also be attributed to the intake of HCG."

I thougth clomid reduced estrogen levels, and was planning on using it in small doses during my cycle, and then beefing it up to 50 ED for 10 days PCT.

Is the point here that Clomid was used in high doses ALONE? (causing an increase in test production via interrupting the pituitary's normal feedback look, stealing estrogen the gland normally reads to determine Test levels?)

Ah yes, there is no end to the screwed up things one can read and then conclude... the site I got this from is anabolicreview.com
 
Neodavid said:
the drug profile sections says about HCG:

"It therefore is useful for maintaining testosterone production and/or testicle size during a steroid cycle. Use of this drug in the taper is rather counterproductive, since the resulting increased testosterone production is itself inhibitory to the hypothalamus and pituitary, delaying recovery. Thus, if this drug is used, it is preferably used during the cycle itself. A daily amount of 500 IU is generally sufficient, and in my opinion usage should not exceed 1000 IU per day."


But interestingly, reading here in the forum so far, I get the idea most guys prefer to post cycle it.

Any thoughts from those who have tried?

And secondarily, I notice most guys talk about HCG on an ED basis, but I found this on the web which seems to indicate HCG won't really desensitize you to Lutenizing hormone:

"6000 I.U. of HCG in a single injection resulted in elevated testosterone levels for six days after the injection. At a dosage of 1500 I.U. the pharmatestosterone level increases by 250-300% (2.5-3fold) com-pared to the initial value. The athlete should inject one HCG ampule every 5 days. Since the testosterone level remains considerably elevated for several days, it is unnecessary to inject HCG more than once every 5 days. The effective dosage for ath-letes is usually 2000-5000 I.U. per injection and should-as al-ready mentioned-be injected every 5 days. HCG should only be taken for a few weeks. If HCG is taken by male athletes over many weeks and in high dosages, it is possible that the testes will respond poorly to a later HCG intake and a release of the body's own LH. This could result in a permanent inadequate gonadal function. "

And then finally, anyone care to comment on taking HCG DURING a cycle? Is the problem increased sides as stated below??

"HCG can in part cause side effects similar to those of injectable testosterone. A higher testosterone production also goes hand in hand with an elevated estrogen level which could result in gynecomastia. This could manifest itself in a temporary growth of breasts or reinforce already existing breast growth in men. Farsighted athletes thus combine HCG with an antiestrogen. "

This part confused me somewhat. I thought Clomid WAS an anti-estrogen... yet here it says:

"Athletes who have already increased their endogenous test-osterone level by taking Clomid and intend subsequently to take HCG could experience considerable water retention and distinct feminization symptoms (gynecomastia, tendency toward fat de-posits on the hips). This is due to the fact that high testosterone leads to a high conversion rate to estrogens. In very young ath-letes HCG, like anabolic steroids, can cause an early stunting of growth since it prematurely closes the epiphysial growth plates. Mood swings and high blood pressure can also be attributed to the intake of HCG."

I thougth clomid reduced estrogen levels, and was planning on using it in small doses during my cycle, and then beefing it up to 50 ED for 10 days PCT.

Is the point here that Clomid was used in high doses ALONE? (causing an increase in test production via interrupting the pituitary's normal feedback look, stealing estrogen the gland normally reads to determine Test levels?)

Ah yes, there is no end to the screwed up things one can read and then conclude... the site I got this from is anabolicreview.com

I wish I could comb the entire internet and clean it up. Those doses mentioned are very high...too high IMO. You can use HVG post cycle, but should not run it concurrently with clomid, as this is of no advantage to you. Clomid is a SERM and does NOT reduce estrogen levels. It has rather weak estrogen receptor antagonistic properties, however, one of its targets which confers its strongest estrogen antagonistic effect is the suprapituitary (the site of estrogen feedback, which is a major factor in HPTA shutdown). AIs reduce estrogen levels,,,,SERMs do not.
 
No kidding man, the internet is a great place to get messed up information.

That info alone is going to mess with the guy I order from, now I need some Novla, to avoid gyno. I thought clomid would help with that, but apparently not...

I might be able to get along with the 50 tabs of Arimidex he's sending though, so maybe next time.


einstein1905 said:
I wish I could comb the entire internet and clean it up. Those doses mentioned are very high...too high IMO. You can use HVG post cycle, but should not run it concurrently with clomid, as this is of no advantage to you. Clomid is a SERM and does NOT reduce estrogen levels. It has rather weak estrogen receptor antagonistic properties, however, one of its targets which confers its strongest estrogen antagonistic effect is the suprapituitary (the site of estrogen feedback, which is a major factor in HPTA shutdown). AIs reduce estrogen levels,,,,SERMs do not.
 
HCG, Nolva, Clomid

Wow, my brain hurts! I've never claimed to be a Frickin Genius, but "Old School", (and I could be off base). During cycle, we kept Noladex on hand in case we felt estrogen related sides, (gyno, high water retention, etc.) then the last 2-3 weeks we ran HCG to start bringing the boys back, and finally Clomid 2-3 weeks after, to finish PCT.
This sounds very simple, but always worked for me. We never fucked with our cycle unless we felt pronounced sides.
Tell me what you Think. K.I.S.S.
 
Amen to that one dude, I like your ideas... (grin)

Honestly, part of my need to ask that is pyschological. I can't stand to see my boys the size of raisins, and this time they seem to 'get lazy' fast... Was going to start 1000 EOD once my order came in, until they looked at least partway normal. (6 weeks into my cycle now).

Also, I hate to inject ED, so was hoping to find 1500 every 3 or 4 days was good, something like that. I guess I'll have to buck up and get slin pins and do 500 sub-q ED.

graybass said:
Wow, my brain hurts! I've never claimed to be a Frickin Genius, but "Old School", (and I could be off base). During cycle, we kept Noladex on hand in case we felt estrogen related sides, (gyno, high water retention, etc.) then the last 2-3 weeks we ran HCG to start bringing the boys back, and finally Clomid 2-3 weeks after, to finish PCT.
This sounds very simple, but always worked for me. We never fucked with our cycle unless we felt pronounced sides.
Tell me what you Think. K.I.S.S.
 
I use it mid cycle at times with certain drugs - deca and tren mostly - to keep the boys the right size - I also have ran it all cycle - the one thing I notice is that I feel much better than without it - like I am more leveled out and normal
 
Really... so what did you do, 500 ED, or 1500 every 4?

Deacon said:
I use it mid cycle at times with certain drugs - deca and tren mostly - to keep the boys the right size - I also have ran it all cycle - the one thing I notice is that I feel much better than without it - like I am more leveled out and normal
 
I have the same results as Deacon. When using it midcycle I especially notice that it keeps my mental state healthy. I get depressed after a few weeks on a heavy cycle and that shit really helps keep me level headed.
 
The main enemy of a fast recovery is Testicular Atrophy not the HTPA,,,Keep the boys up and running and when you're done cycling they'll be ready to go back to doing their job,,,For BBers I rec using it after the first 2 weeks of the cycle at 500iu's ed for at least 10 days,,,then repeat,,,Use again for the clearing time after the last shot(you know while the esters are still breaking down),,,Then use Clomid if you wish,,,To prevent gyno I rec using arimidex .25mg ed if you use less than 1 gram of aas total per week,,,If more than a gram use .5 mg of Ari,,,VDC
 
There is a doctor that posts over on massmonster's about this subject and he says that very low doses throuhgout the cycle will keep the boys out and won't be as hard to recover post cycle(won't crash as hard).I have done this the last 2 cycles and my current cycle and love it.500iu a couple times a week throughout does me great.
 
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