I feel lost and defeated need advice

[Jdoe32]

Symptoms: no libido, low energy, brain fog, depression, anxiety, poor concentration. HCG treatment for 2 months (3000 IU - fertility), felt major improvement. One year later started HCG mono, which could've evolved into TRT+hcg over time if all worked well.

Before starting HCG: • total T 6.09 (1.75 - 7.81 / ng/ ml); • free T 8.42 (1.00 - 28.28 / pg/mL); • FSH 5.66 (1.27 - 19.26 mlU/ ml); • LH 2.64 (1.24 - 8.62 mlU/ ml); • SHBG 75.30 (13.3-89.5 nmol/ L).

After 4 weeks on HCG 3000 IU/week (blood draw before pinning): • total T 5.97 (1.75 - 7.81 / ng/ml); • free T 8.10 (1.00 - 28.28 / pg/mL); • E2 30.17 (<15 - 31.5 pg/mL); • FSH <0.20 (1.27 - 19.26 ml/ ml); • LH <0.20 (1.24-8.62 mlU/ml); • SHBG 82.70 (13.3-89.5 nmol/L); • prolactin 9.82 (2.64-13.13 ng/ml).

After 3 months with 3000iu, Dr added 1500 more (for a total of 4500 despite mentioning to her that my last blood was drawn days apart from pinning day), for one more month (this time blood draw in the morning, 2 hours after I injected HCG), because I didn’t felt any symptoms relief besides some energy and a bit of libido which disappeared fast through the 6th week:

• total T 9.56 (1.75 - 7.81 ng/ml) high,
• Free T 17.73 (1.00 - 28.28 / pg/mL),
• E2 53.59 (<15 - 31.5 pg/mL) - high;
• PSA 1.05 (0 - 4/ng/ml) - usually I had it 0.8-0.9.

Need advice:
I suspected that high E2 may have canceled any benefits that could come with both high T levels, but Dr disagrees. She may be right and I could be wrong, but I have the feeling that while she is well intended and open minded to help, her experience with male hormones is limited. Idk..is just a feeling. She decided to have everything to a stop for 10 weeks and reevaluate after my PSA drops to base level. So:
1. it is safe to presume that my symptoms are not T related?
2. I didn't felt improvement when T raised, because of E2?
3. The raise in psa levels scared me a bit, how soon can I expect a drop in level?

P.S. I tried to post only what hormones I thought to be relevant to this case. If any more informations are needed, please ask.

 

[McLovin.]

my take on this is go back to what felt good if you're purely looking to feel those symptom relieves and you felt great on 3000iu's with an E2 around 30 then i would say try to match those levels again. Your E2 levels could have crept up after those 4 weeks which made you fall out of the balance of E2 and test where you felt best. you can try a small dose of AI aromasin and see if that improves any symptoms just don't over do it


this all being said with your original numbers already seemed pretty decent its a shame we don't know your E2 before going on HCG.

if you get off of HCG your HPTA is shut down as we can see from your LH and FSH

FSH <0.20 (1.27 - 19.26 ml/ ml); • LH <0.20 (1.24-8.62 mlU/ml

so you will need to pct to get your natural production back its possible that your body bounces back on its own but less likely depends on a bunch of things age is one of them the younger you are they easier it is for your body to recover

 

[Jdoe32]

my take on this is go back to what felt good if you're purely looking to feel those symptom relieves and you felt great on 3000iu's with an E2 around 30 then i would say try to match those levels again. Your E2 levels could have crept up after those 4 weeks which made you fall out of the balance of E2 and test where you felt best. you can try a small dose of AI aromasin and see if that improves any symptoms just don't over do it


this all being said with your original numbers already seemed pretty decent its a shame we don't know your E2 before going on HCG.

if you get off of HCG your HPTA is shut down as we can see from your LH and FSH

so you will need to pct to get your natural production back its possible that your body bounces back on its own but less likely depends on a bunch of things age is one of them the younger you are they easier it is for your body to recover

My pre-HCG E2 was mid range. So decent numbers all over (except high SHBG and low-ish free T), but a lot of symptoms. With relatively the same numbers, last year while on HCG I felt amazing. I don’t understand why it’s all different one year apart, this time wasn’t the same even when I was on the same protocol, before up-ing the dose.
I stopped HCG cold turkey two weeks ago, my Dr don’t want me to do pct. She just wants to stop everything for 10 weeks and see psa get to base level. Kinda scared me too. I don’t have a problem with quiting cold turkey tbh. I’m 44 yo, but I’m willing to give my body a chance to fight his own battles. Also, when I asked my doc for AI she said there is no need, because she doesn’t think my E2 is the culprit, so no point in adding more meds. As I said, I suspect that while she is well intended, could lack expertise.

 

[McLovin.]

most people here will have their own opinions about how high or low E2 is supposed to be. To me that points to the fact that its different for everyone imo you just have to find a good balance between E2 and Test that being said its completely possible that how you're feeling has nothing to do with hormonal balance but with your surroundings so give that a thought think about your living situation and whatever was going on around you. i know there is also a connection between test and dopamine levels but i dont know too much about that but its possible you had improvements through increased dopamine release which you then got used to but this is a speculation without proof.
for now since you already quit for 2 weeks i would suggest you sit that out for a couple of weeks and see how your body reacts your PSA will drop in that time surely. if you still have symptoms after a while i would personally try to experiment with an AI to find a good E2 level.

Im sure other members on here will have some good suggestions on things to try or test out

 

[Jdoe32]

most people here will have their own opinions about how high or low E2 is supposed to be. To me that points to the fact that its different for everyone imo you just have to find a good balance between E2 and Test that being said its completely possible that how you're feeling has nothing to do with hormonal balance but with your surroundings so give that a thought think about your living situation and whatever was going on around you. i know there is also a connection between test and dopamine levels but i dont know too much about that but its possible you had improvements through increased dopamine release which you then got used to but this is a speculation without proof.
for now since you already quit for 2 weeks i would suggest you sit that out for a couple of weeks and see how your body reacts your PSA will drop in that time surely. if you still have symptoms after a while i would personally try to experiment with an AI to find a good E2 level.

Im sure other members on here will have some good suggestions on things to try or test out

Thank you

 

[MA11]

Symptoms: no libido, low energy, brain fog, depression, anxiety, poor concentration. HCG treatment for 2 months (3000 IU - fertility), felt major improvement. One year later started HCG mono, which could've evolved into TRT+hcg over time if all worked well.

...

So you did HCG only for fertility reasons?

 

[Jdoe32]

So you did HCG only for fertility reasons?

The first time I did, yes. When I saw that my lifetime depression, lack of libido, anxiety and all that got way better, I tried to do HCG as a mono therapy for symptoms relief, with the intend of switching to TRT+low dose HCG in time, to preserve fertility as well. But I had my ass handed to me big time

 

[MA11]

Unless you want to knock up the Mrs soonish, you should consider freezing some sperm. I mean you're 44 and you play with your HPTA

 

[MA11]

Read that if you haven't already.

Anabolic Steroids and Fertility

Anabolic steroids don’t only affect the endogenous testosterone production, but also sperm production—a process called spermatogenesis. In this article I will walk you through how spermatogenesis works, how anabolic steroid use ties into this, and what you can possibly do about this.

thinksteroids.com

 

[Jdoe32]

Unless you want to knock up the Mrs soonish, you should consider freezing some sperm. I mean you're 44 and you play with your HPTA

I did froze some sperm. Also, I don’t play with my HPTA. I preferred to try HCG as a mono exactly because I don’t want to lose fertility, and wanting to find a solution and still have a kid naturally.

 

[McLovin.]

HCG does shut down your HTPA so it's kinda playing with it. also you can still have fertility while on trt it def decreases your changes to reproduce but its still possible.

 

[Jdoe32]

HCG does shut down your HTPA so it's kinda playing with it. also you can still have fertility while on trt it def decreases your changes to reproduce but its still possible.

I’m trying to find the best solution with the minimal side effects. HPTA can be restarted. Anyway, the thread is addressing a different topic, not fertility issues. That is secondary

 

[McLovin.]

only thing that would suggest to me that you could feel better on hcg is that you originally had lower Free T levels getting that higher might make you feel better but idk if it would be a direct correlation at this point i think you need to experiment and see what works well for you i would even suggest going on low dose of test and do blood tests get your E2 in different ranges see where you feel best theres nothing else you can do then to try stuff imo

 

[Jdoe32]

only thing that would suggest to me that you could feel better on hcg is that you originally had lower Free T levels getting that higher might make you feel better but idk if it would be a direct correlation at this point i think you need to experiment and see what works well for you i would even suggest going on low dose of test and do blood tests get your E2 in different ranges see where you feel best theres nothing else you can do then to try stuff imo

Thank you for trying to help, I really appreciate it. The thing is that eventually my free T got to mid range if you check my thread, without the symptoms relief. That’s when I suspected that maybe high E2 could “cancel” the free T benefit. I’m no expert so this is just an opinion. My endo said that this level of E2 is not to blame, but I can’t say I trust her 100%, she doesn’t seems to be very experienced in male optimization hormone. I just don’t understand why the first time worked on 3000 IU and not now. Today I spoke with an Dr from a man’s clinic. Was kinda disappointed talk, because while a paid for it, he was talking to me while driving, and was fast, 10 mins tops. At first he thought that I want to bounce back from my HCG experience, but I told him I’ll let my body do the recovery. He insisted on taking Clomid, and when I mentioned again that I need help with my symptoms from which I suffered for 20 years, an mentioned to him my always high SHBG (he didn’t even care to ask me), he said that HCG was expected to not help me (don’t know why helped the first time), that TRT won’t help me (because I already have decent T levels) , and that my problem is high SHBG and I need Proviron, and he will send me a prescription to buy all that from pharmacy. Was in a hurry to get out from the phone call. He didn’t even care to let me ask about what can I expect, side effects, what blood tests I need to do and how to monitor this treatment, etc. NOTHING! So he left me even more confused and scared, after he told me that TRT won’t help me and actually I need something else. Anyway, thanks again, man! Atm I just wish to lower my psa, that lvl raise scared the shit out of me and made me quit everything.

 

[Type-IIx]

perhaps a vague question, but I have to ask — what is your view about people with depression and anxiety? What do you think of those people?

 

[Jdoe32]

perhaps a vague question, but I have to ask — what is your view about people with depression and anxiety? What do you think of those people?

What do you mean? Is horrible to go trough that. Is something that has eaten half my life and my best years. Changed for the worse the whole course of my life. But, doesn’t has anything to do with the thread, doesn’t it?

 

[pigeonhed]

Well, depression and anxiety can be closely related to hormonal imbalances, particularly involving testosterone and estradiol levels.

 

[Type-IIx]

What do you mean? Is horrible to go trough that. Is something that has eaten half my life and my best years. Changed for the worse the whole course of my life. But, doesn’t has anything to do with the thread, doesn’t it?

Why do you make the leap to hormonal involvement? Or, rather — should I say — hormonal cause?

 

[Type-IIx]

Well, depression and anxiety can be closely related to hormonal imbalances, particularly involving testosterone and estradiol levels.

Usually in the direction of effect rather than cause

 

[Jdoe32]

Well, depression and anxiety can be closely related to hormonal imbalances, particularly involving testosterone and estradiol levels.

I know, that’s why I try so hard to find out what happened, if you had time to read my (fairly) long thread. Because after I’ve felt depression and anxiety leaving last year when I was on HCG, this time I’ve felt some energy and libido in week 5 that was gone by week 6, and that’s it. No wellbeing, no depression/anxiety relief, no nothing more. I want to understand what went wrong: was my E2 too high, or not that high to explain this lack of libido etc ? Is my SHBG the problem and I don’t need TRT, because I can fix that with Proviron? Is that safer? What happened the second time that went so wrong compared to first time? So many questions, sorry. Probably I need to stick to the questions from original thread. I was hoping that ppl here can help me find an answer.