IM injections not first choice for TRT!?!?

ASaxon

New Member
As my research has moved from understanding hypogonadism to treating it I am coming away with some impressions that seem to fly in the face of many of you on TRT. Heres my understanding.

Pellets: These seem like an okay option for some people but not really for initial treatment. There are too many variables to figure out in using pellets so it seems they are more suited for people that are successful on other forms of TRT that want the overall convenience of pellets. Also, E2 seems to not be as much of a problem with pellets. I do recognize how Swale feels about them but I just havent read much from anyone else that are critical of their use so I have to include them as being viable options for some people in some situations. I just dont think its good as an initial therapy for many of the reasons Swale mentions.

Patches: These are the best at mimicking the normal diurnal pattern of Testosterone production. Unfortunately, from what Ive read many people never are able to get high enough T with this system. Additionally, from what Ive read, as many as 2/3 of people using this system have to give it up due to skin irritation and rash. This doesnt seem like a good option for initial treatment due to the limited Testosterone replacement they seem to achieve and the low tolerance statistics.

IM Injections: These are by far the cheapest treatment but with that said Ive also read a lot about the problem this delivery system has with E2 conversion. I know that weekly injections are the only way to go with injects but even with that Ive read a lot about some people that have high E2 even with weekly injects. Many people then have to go on some sort of aromatase inhibitor (DIM) to deal with the E2 conversion problem. Aside from that many people have a hard time injecting themselves but Im sure that can be overcome. Also it takes around a month and a half before T levels stabilize and treatment adjustments can be made. So is this the best initial therapy?

Gels: Gels seem to have a good reputation. Although they are very expensive they also have good statistics as to the effectiveness of their use. Gels seem a little messy to apply but that doesnt seem like its that big of a deal. They seem to have good absorption characteristics and they seem to achieve adequate T levels in the upper half of normal with seemingly more limited problems with E2 from what Ive read (although E2 can be a problem with any form of treatment depending on the patient.) Also, Gels seem to steady T levels in about two weeks which is always good for people just coming onto T therapy.

So from what I can tell Gels are the best choice because of their effectiveness at raising T levels, ease of application, lower chance of E2 conversion problems and shorter time to achieve steady T levels. I know some dont like them because theyre messy but from what Ive read if you apply the Gel right after getting out of the shower and on wet skin, they have 20 to 40% better absorption and would solve the messy problem as everyones messy (wet) coming out of the shower.

Given that if Gels dont work doesnt seem like patches would have a chance of succeeding so I think patches actually dont make any sense after a failure of gels.

I dont think Pellets have any place in initial therapy setting and thus arent an option for me right now.

IM Injections seem to be the second best choice. I like the idea of only taking T every week but with all the variables dealing with E2 conversion and possibly adding hCG into the mix seems like its more complicated to get right.

So it seems to me that Swales recommendation to use Gels first and then IM and skip the rest of them is good advice. I just wonder how many of you believe that IM is a better first choice for treatement?
 
It depends on the indiviual, there life style, what there hopeing to achieve. I would think that gels are the best way t start. I started with the patch then gels and am now doing injections. And am quite happy with them.
 
Scott,

Almost all of your post is correct.

While SWALE doesn't like the pellets both Shippen and Carruthers do, so professionally people disagree with one another just like they do in other spheres of life. I don't think there is right or wrong here just valid differences of opinion.

Pellets are very expensive something that can make them useless to some, something you didn't mention and despite being the steadiest form of TRT release are problematic in terms of dosing. Then again like you said they don't convert to E2 very much whith is great for men who suffer from E2 problems.

The gels are very convenient unless you live in a hot climate or engage in sport that requires regular showers.

However THE big drawback with gels is conversion to E2.

The gels readily convert to both DHT and E2, more so than weekly I.M from what I can gather.

Dr Malcolm Carruthers M.D, FRCPATH, MRCGP states in his book Androgen Deficiency In Men that this is the case with gels and he is one of the worlds leading experts.

This does not make gels bad per sea, gels are the second steadiest form of treatment after pellets, are cheaper than pellets at least in the UK and are very easy to dose.

Gels are one of the best forms of treatment for most men, but in my experience terrible for men with E2 problems.

It is a case of horses for courses, one works for one person wont necessarily work for another and the best form of treatment is the one that works for you irrespective of arguments one way or the other.
 
It seems as though alot of people with joint and muscle problems seem to be benefitting from IM injections over other forms of TRT. So that might be a first option for people who have these problems. Anyone know why this is the case though?
 
I think this effect is seen when comparing gels to I.M injections as opposed to any other therapies that are less widly used.

It certainly is interesting though isn't it as quite a few people have reported this effect.

Gels cause a significant increase in E2 at maximum two sachet doses- Androgel and Testim, perhpas this is a factor and something that does not occur with weekly I.M injections.

Another factor of course could be that those moving to I.M injections may just have a higher T or at least free T level.

From the history of TRT and what people are saying only weekly I.M injections are worth consideration as treatment, as I.M injections at two, three and four weekly intervals as well as longer lasting esters such as Nebido seem pretty awful due to other factors.
 
wheres the proof that gels raise e2 higher then shots , that completly wrong , my doc has done blood tests on over 20 males on both shots and gel and myself also and my e2 along with all 20 other people , there e2 was higher on 100mg of cyp then 2 tubes of testem per day ?

i dont know why everone on this site says gels raise e2 higher ? , thats why i cant take shots because of e2 but im fine on 2 1/2 tubes of testim , last blood test was 17ng ref 10 -50 , when i went on the shot it was 70 ?
 
I thought gels didn't have as big an effect on E2 as IM Injects? I guess I need to go back and do more reading because my main concern is keeping E2 in check. I actually don't know if I will have that problem but due to my weight I'm assuming that that will be my biggest challenge in TRT.
 
I have been on TRT for over 21 yrs. I feel if you have a problem with high E2 you are going to have to take something to keep it down on any form of TRT.
I would still be on the Gels if my joints and muscles did not break down on them. I do the shots because it gets the T to my joints and muscles and the Gels don't. I never had problems or swymptoms of high E2 until I got into my 50's. I was 40 when I came down with Low T now 61.
Phil
 
Well thought out, Saxon, and others as well. Let me just make a couple of comments.

The patches deliver a very consistent dose, therefore don't really mimick the diurnal pattern. I'm not sure what value same actually has, to be perfectly honest.

Test cyp does not present excessive E conversion issues when it is dosed properly. The transdermals convert much more.

I prefer to start out with a T gel, and go to IM if that is not adequate. I would consider the pellets last choice.

I know how to control estrogens, so they do not present a problem for my patients no matter which delivery system is employed.

benrock--the aromatase enzyme lives in the skin, so the transdermals indeed are more likely to convert than IM. But if that is not happening in you, then I'm just happy for you.
 
SWALE quote
I prefer to start out with a T gel, and go to IM if that is not adequate. I would consider the pellets last choice.
Unquote

I think that makes sense, as you are going from the easiest to most difficult dosing options and a gel lasts a day, good I.M a week and pellets four to six months.

Doing it the way you have stated allows for assesment of each therapy in turn/properly and makes sense from a time issue point of view whilst seeing what is right for the individual.
 
so why when i do im shots my e2 goes nuts , but not on gels , along with the other people that see my doc ?

not bieng rude , just would like more knowledge on the subject ,

also if i switch from gel to shots should i still use the gel for a period of time swale ?
 
benrock said:
so why when i do im shots my e2 goes nuts , but not on gels , along with the other people that see my doc ?

not bieng rude , just would like more knowledge on the subject ,

also if i switch from gel to shots should i still use the gel for a period of time swale ?
That's a good question. Maybe you don't have the same level of aromatase enzyme in your skin that most guys have. But whatever the reason, it sounds like a good thing in your case.

As far as switching, I seem to remember Swale saying that you apply the normal amount of gel the day you get your first injection. Then the second day you apply 1/2 the normal amount. Then you discontinue the gel. This is because it takes 2 or 3 day for your T levels to peak after an injection of T cyp or ethanate.
 
SWALE,

On a protocol that use both IM shots and HcG, I am assuming that since a lower weekly dose of IM shots is being used (let's say 80 mg), that E2 conversion is reduced even more....

Question: Does the addition of the HcG into the protocol now increase E2 conversion noticeably? Ditto with DHT....

Thanks for the info.

Larry



SWALE said:
benrock--It's just that everyone is different. Nothing surprises me anymore.
 
Larry

It did for me my TT and FT along with my E2 when up. But now 6 weeks later my levels are coming down. I started added TMG and this has me E2 coming down lower so much that I have to cut my dose of Indolplex/DIM and stop the Arimidex .5 mgs. I was taking every 5 days. I can't do anything until my next blood test in 3 weeks but I feel SWALE is right my Testis are becoming Desensitized to the high dose of HCG my Dr. has me on 500 mgs. 3 times a week. I just hope that by the time I get my Dr. to lower it I will still benefit from using it.
Phil
 
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