Insulin *Taboo*

[Wunderpus]

What's up guys and gals?

I wanted to put together a comprehensive thread on insulin. I'd like to compile PERSONAL experiences from our members, no "I read this." "Or my buddy did that." etc. Let's talk about what we've done, what has worked, what hasn't etc.

My experience with insulin has solely been limited to the faster acting Humalog and NovoLog. I have ONLY used them pre workout, about 15 minutes pre, in conjunction with GH 45 minutes shot pre workout. Now, I use this to increase my pump as well as shuttle nutrients to my used muscles. I use Carbolyn, BCAAs and micronized creatine both pre workout and intra workout. I have had tremendous luck using this method, 4 weeks on and 3-4 weeks off (depending on whether I did it 6 days a week, or if I went less I will shorten the time off). Here's how I structure it every time:


5iu GH 45 minutes pre workout

10iu Humalog/Novolog 15 minutes pre workout (Week 1 is 10iu, week 2 is 12iu, 3 is 14iu and week 4 is 16iu, then stop, relax a few weeks and repeat).

Sip on pre workout shake of PWO powder of choice, carb of choice, BCAA/ECA of choice and creatine of choice. I can disclose brands if it matters to you*.

Intra workout shake, sip between sets. The amount of carbs depends on a lot on your insulin dose.

When I'm done lifting I head home and pin IGF-1 LR3, you can leave this out or keep it in. Don't run it more than 4 weeks, apparently you lose sensitivity to it. I run 100mcgs, if you're wondering. Also, right when I get home I make a shake of 1 cup frozen blueberries, 1 carton (50 grams protein), 1 cup of "original" quaker oats, 2 packets of stevia and 1 hint of almond milk (by the way, this is a killer post workout shake for non-insulin users, too.)

About an hour to 1.5 hours after the shake, I eat a meal of high protein (chicken, fish, or lean beef) some fast carbs and some veggies if you'd like. Avoid fats for 4 or so hours if using fast acting insulin, subcutaneous shots. The time for avoiding fats varies depending on IM/ Sub-q shots, as well as the insulin's "speed" (Humalog being faster to peak and clear than humilin, for example).

*My ONE suggestion is DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT use Prime MD Intraworkout. I have used it multiple times and gone HYPO every time. They are misrepresenting something about that product, and it is NOT, I repeat NOT safe to use with insulin. I have had a buddy experience the same, DO NOT use it.

This is not the "end all be all" insulin protocol. This is a VERY simple method, with the lowest risk -> reward in my opinion.

I believe my laid out plan is the best "Intro to insulin" plan for a beginner, it is unfortunate humalog/novalog is NOT available to the public, whereas humilin is. I am not suggesting the usage of insulin at all, but if you're curious, this could be a good place to start. I know insulin sounds fantastic, and everywhere you looks you see "the most ANABOLIC substance on earth." Get over that shit. It's effective if used properly, but it won't turn you into an IFBB super heavyweight.

I cannot overstate this enough, do more research. Know everything there is to know about insulin timing, the necessary carbs, measuring the insulin etc. Do not fuck around with insulin, seriously. Also, it would be nice for your training partner/spouse/whatever to know you're using insulin, in case you start to go hypo, they can alert the first responders accordingly. Also, keep glucose tabs or some hard candies in your pocket in case you feel funny.

Signs of hypo are lightheaded, feeling sleepy, confusion, shakiness, sweat/chills.... If you feel ANY of these symptoms, chug a Gatorade or pop some glucose/candies. Better to break your diet a bit and add some carbs than to die.


I want to hear about other protocols involving the usage of insulin during the day with meals.

For example, an insanely built acquaintance of mine uses insulin 3-4x a day. He times it with his GH shots and runs the 10g carbs to 1iu insulin process.

Looks like this-
Wake up
5iu GH
Wait 15-20 minutes, 10iu insulin with 100g carbs spread depending on insulin type (mostly humilin in his case, so it would be wise for YOU to have an understanding of the lengths in which the insulin is "active" within your body).

 

[Wunderpus]

I just saw @mands thread on insulin was bumped today, this is also a good read. It explores further into using it throughout the day, rather than just pre workout as I do:

Someone sent this the other day to me. Seemed like some good information.


Insulin use guide by Gavin Kane

The Almost Pro Guide to Insulin Use

"Please note (warning): I have personally used insulin for over 8 years and can control it's effects for my personal level of development. I am not a medical doctor and therefore not fully qualified to recommend insulin use for people. What follows is my experience in 8 years of use and what I have learned. If anyone has additional information that is pertinent, please add to the thread, but do not reply from heresay, only if you are qualified to add something of value to this thread.

Insulin is one of many hormones that helps the body turn the food we eat into energy. Also, insulin helps us store energy that we can use later. After we eat, insulin works by causing sugar (glucose) to go from the blood into our body's cells to make fat, sugar, and protein. When we need more energy between meals, insulin will help us use the fat, sugar, and protein that we have stored. This occurs whether we make our own insulin in the pancreas gland or take it by injection.

8 Years ago when I first made the decision to try insulin, information was limited, the internet was not full of help like it is now and I relied on correspondance from Rich Gaspari and Tim Belknap who were extremely helpful. I started my first insulin use off season, during bulking when it's use is easiest to control. I used Humulin R, regular resonse time insulin for my first cycle. It has a release time of up to 8 hours, so blood sugar monitoring is mandatory. It has an onset of about 1/2 hour, reaching its peak in 2-5 hours and tapering off by hour 8. I used 2iu post workout with 20 grams of sugar per iu, immediately following a workout, increasing 2 iu per week until I reached a maximum of 12iu. Since it will remain active in the body for up to 8 hours, morning workouts were a must. Because I was off season, I was able to take in enough carbs every three hours to keep from going hypo.

My second cycle of insulin was Humulin type L, which is a very long acting insuling; since I was bulking, I decided to try a long acting insulin to stay anabolic all day. It will remain active in the body for 16-20 hours, is active 1/2 hour after injection, reaching its peak in 3-5 hours, will re-peak at 10-12 hours and slowly taper down. You must use a glucometer for any insulin use, but especially with long term insulin. I had to consume minimum 100 grams of carbs every 3 hours during the day, I got nothing but fat off of insulin type L and do not ever recommend anyone use it. It is too hard to control.

I did many cycles of Humulin R for years, progressing from 2iu up to 20iu post workout. After many post workout only cycles of insulin, I started to experiment with insulin use on non-workout days. I again started slowly and increased dosages with monitoring by glucometer. I used only with breakfast at first and then added in an afternoon injection as well. I never went above 10iu at each meal, always checking my blood sugar every 1/2 hour. Yes your fingers will hurt like hell, but I would rather have sore fingers than live in a casket.

Finally Humalog was introduced and I first tried it in 1999. This is what bodybuilders had been waiting for, a fast acting insulin that had a quick onset, short duration and was better controlled through sugar intake. My first cycle of Humalog started with the again customary 2iu postworkout, slowly increasing to 10iu post workout. Humalog has an onset of 15-20 minutes, reaches a peak in 1 hour and will remain active up to 5 hours.

I only recommend Humalog use for anyone considering insulin. It is the easiest to control and work with. Here are my recommendations and guidelines for use:

Start with 2iu postworkout only, drinking 10 grams glucose or dextrose per unit injected. You may slowly increase the dose up to 10iu total but never exceed 10iu, even if you are experienced. You must, I repeat, must use a glucometer, don't even think of using insulin without it. Going by feel for symptoms of hypo is stupid and reckless. You want to make sure your blood sugar levels stay above 80mg/dl ideally, but never let them drop below 40.

Since humalog is active for up to 5 hours, you must make sure not to take it after evening workouts, unless you will be awake for those 5 hours. Insulin levels can crash rapidly and there are no warning signs when you are sleeping. Low levels will make you sleepy, so you just won't wake up - ever!

Your postworkout meal should consist of minimum 10 grams sugar per iu injected plus minimum 50 grams whey protein. Your follow up meal, 1 hour after injection, when it reaches its peak, should consist of easily digested proteins and carbs. No red meat; fish, chicken or turkey are more easily digested. Carbs should be high glycemic, such as potatoes, white rice or pasta.

Your final meal during the 5 hour window can be anything you desire as long as it has a minimum of 75 grams carbs. Oatmeal, red meat etc are all acceptable, and your carbs should ideally be low glycemic to sustain your stabilizing insulin levels.

Insulin should be refridgerated at all times; though it is safe to leave at room temperature for up to 30 days, I don't recommend it.

Your injections should always be sub-q, IM injections do not allow for the regular onset times and delay onset which makes controlling carbs and monitoring sugar levels harder to do.

Ideally injections should be in the lower abdominal area, sub-q. Pinch 1 inch of skin, roll in between your fingers to remove fatty deposits and inject at a 90 degree angle crossing through the skin. This will insure an optimal sub-q injection and less chance of IM or fat injections. Both will slow absorbtion time which we are trying to eliminate.

Take a glucometer reading 1/2 hour after injection to check levels. If they are below 80mg/dl than take in more carbs immediately, take another glucometer reading after the one hour mark to check full onset and reaction. Again, if below 80mg than take in a fast acting carb with your one hour meal.

Signs of hypo include, dizziness, slow slurred speech, light-headedness, sleepiness, lethargy, numbness in the outer limbs, and blurred vision. Never take insulin unsupervised, alway let someone you know that you are injecting so they can help monitor warning signs and symptoms. Remember, the glucometer is your best friend, but someone else may notice symptoms before you do and can assist in raising blood sugar levels immediately.

You may progress to taking Humalog on non-workout days, but only after breakfast, and no more than 10iu. You must work up to the dosage and again follow the above guidelines. Your meals should consist of a mix of fast and slow acting carbs, and always include protein. Milk has fast acting carbs, oatmeal is low glycemic, etc. always use the glycemic index for carbs.

These are the general rules of taking insulin safely and sanely. Again, I do not recommend the casual lifter take insulin ever, it is better left to those who compete and have reached a superior level of development. It is best used to break plateaus, such as with GH or IGF. It is not for newbies, nor for those without minimum 5 years lifting experience with steroid use.

If there is anything I forgot, please PM me or add advice to this thread, but again only by those qualified to do so. You should have at least 5 cycles insulin use to be qualified to help others. This is very serious business and I cannot stress enough, not for the casual lifter.

AP
Since this article was originally written, new ideas have come to light and been tested, not only by me, but also by my band of guinee pigs with awesome success.

We decided to remove the daily injection pattern and move into a more infrequent schedule to prevent insulin resistence and shutting down the bodies natural ability to continue to regenerate insulin from the pancreas.

So after talking with Milos, Chad and others I tried and found a two day schedule, max three day schedule to be optimal to induce massive hypertrophy and minimize insulin resistance. It should be coordinated and timed with the largest muscle groups trained, such as taken 2 times per week pwo after legs and then also with back.

Maximize your nutrition intake, I cannot stress enough that up to 30-40% of your daily intake of food should be during this window of opportunity. Immediately take in some glucose and whey pwo, followed up by a super clean meal of high carb, moderate protein. Have pancakes and eggs, chicken and rice, lean beef and potatoes, etc.

So the protocol is now this:
Take 10-15ius pwo only 2-3 days per week but never in successive days. There must be at least one day in between injections. Lower is better here, so start with 2 times per week, 10iu.

If you are not making the gains, then stay at 2x per week but now do morning and pwo. Same thing, 10iu injects with clean carbs, no fat. Please use Humalog. I know a lot of guys are using Humulin R and I can help you with that if that is all you can get, but log is so much easier to use.

Anyway, you can go up to 3x per day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner 2x per week and really maximize your gains from slin. It really is all in the nutrition with slin, so if you don't want to eat and commit, then don't f'in do it."

mands

 

[Eman]

This thread and topic is sticky worthy IMO.

The whole subject is taboo, just like you said, and rightly so - there is not a huge room for error. Meso has a running theme and that's harm reduction - insulin CAN cause harm but threads like this are what helps to reduce it, thanks pus.

 

[Wunderpus]

This thread and topic is sticky worthy IMO.

The whole subject is taboo, just like you said, and rightly so - there is not a huge room for error. Meso has a running theme and that's harm reduction - insulin CAN cause harm but threads like this are what helps to reduce it, thanks pus.

Shit, I figure people are gonna do it... Might as well tell 'em what worked for me, safely, many times over. Not condoning the practice, as stated, just advising if someone is hellbent on taking a plunge.

 

[ECB]

I personally would rather see guys run some slin, than the boatloads of gear some guys are running. It is very safe when used correctly, with no where near the long term health implications when used responsibly, and precautions taken to manage insulin sensitivity.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

I'm creepin

 

[Wunderpus]

I personally would rather see guys run some slin, than the boatloads of gear some guys are running. It is very safe when used correctly, with no where near the long term health implications when used responsibly, and precautions taken to manage insulin sensitivity.

I'm not sure I'm following the logic. I feel both have their inherent risks and consequences, some faster and more permanent than others. The whole "instant death" thing with insulin, in my mind, makes it stand out as considerably more dangerous.

 

[mghoward74]

My protocol is a tad different.
I pin gh 1st thing in the a.m.
I workout at night so I have to time everything accordingly. I try to have my dinner around an hour or earlier before they gym. I pin 17-18 ius 15-20 minutes before entering the gym. I drink my 1st shake 5 minutes before my session, then my intra during. Of course there's a post shake after, but not all the time.

My 1st shake
25g of hydrolized protein
50g of whey isolate
Bcaa
Glutamine
Fast acting carb ( I have 3 to choose from)

Shake 2
Bcaa
Glutamine
Creatine
Fast acting carb (different from the 1st shake)
Sports drink flavor (like mio, etc...)

Shake 3
25g hydrolized protein
50g of isolate

Never went hypo, or any negative sides whatsoever. I never done more than 3 days in a week, because I want to keep insulin sensitive. I will try 10 pre and 10 post in the near future, to see if there's a difference.

I honestly believe you should up your protein intake if you're choosing to use insulin.

I also use "R"

 

[ECB]

I'm not sure I'm following the logic. I feel both have their inherent risks and consequences, some faster and more permanent than others. The whole "instant death" thing with insulin, in my mind, makes it stand out as considerably more dangerous.

It is hard to kill yourself on slin. You hear the fear mongering but only a few G of carbs will pull you out of a hypo state and buy you time. You would have to be a moron to die from it. All my years I have never actually heard of someone dying from it. BUT I have seen countless people drop dead from the large amounts of shit they run. Heart attacks in their 30's-early 40's..etc.

The logic is there are people running upwards of 1g of tren, copious orals, extreme cycle lengths, etc which is absolutely horrible for you, yet are scared of slin. That is ridiculous.

I would rather see some of these people tone down the gear, and run some damn slin. That is my point..lol It is much safer in the grand scheme of things and in the long run.

Now that said, I don't feel it is for everyone, or every situation and it should be respected. It should be researched, and you should always have some spare carbs with you. But at the point you are running 2g of gear it might be time work that into your arsenal.

 

[blowingup72]

Tried slin for a short period.of time working my way up to 10iu post workout. Carb protocol was the same as the above samples . I honesty didn't see any benefit from it that i recognized and the constant nagging feeling in the back of my mind, (call me paranoid), of possibly going hypo during a workout was a total turn off so it was enough to stop its use. Only had experienced slight hypo once. I think I'd have to use it multiple times a day to see some value in its use.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

The thing I don't get about insulin use is,
None of the golden era boys used it. None
And they looked the best
This alone has me thinking it's use is overrated
Is this the new way to overcome bad genetics or a quick (er) way to the goal?

Then what's happens? Serious question, what happens when you halt your natural insulin production. That's what will happen right? Become a fucking diabetic?

Excuse my ignorance. But I'm all ears

 

[Dr__Jan_Itor]

I agree with people above. Insulin in a tad overrated when it comes to building muscle size. (But the feat behind it is a good motivator to eat more )
As for myself I only have used it (Humalog) pre or post workout up to 8iu.

The thing is with most of the golden aera guys is that they trained hard, heavy and dedicated for years and years with exceptional genetiks and dedication. You don't see that now. People want to look like this after 2-3 years of training and that's not gonna happen. No gh, insu, test, tren whatever Combo will do what time and consistency do. Bc building muscle needs time. Sure a ton of gear can help shorten that but it comes with a ton of side effects and also the end effekt most likely will be disappointing.


Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

If insulin really does help then I'm interested.
I'm stubborn and I will take my sweet time getting warmed up to a new idea
I wasn't one of those 20 some thing year olds than jumped on gear too soon and without a good base. I'm dedicated. Like you read about. And people continually to under estimate the body in terms of what it is capable of. When I'm in my darkest most motivated place is where I make my biggest gains. I have some terrible genetic traits that you prolly wouldn't know it now when you look at me. Dedication.

I'm here to play. Let's talk

 

[blowingup72]

I remember a conversation I had with someone who competes regarding insulin. I mentioned I didn't really notice anything from my use and his response was to bump it up to 20iu and then you'll see things happen. It wasn't a sarcastic answer.

That coupled with the videos of Milos and several other individuals discussing insulin use had me thinking that the only way to really see the drastic changes it can induce is to go into an area of use I'm not willing to risk at all.

If someone is making great gains off 10iu and 100 grams carbs then all the power to you but I don't see that being anywhere near the norm and generally a waste of time for the greater majority of those willing to use it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Wunderpus]

I remember a conversation I had with someone who competes regarding insulin. I mentioned I didn't really notice anything from my use and his response was to bump it up to 20iu and then you'll see things happen. It wasn't a sarcastic answer.

That coupled with the videos of Milos and several other individuals discussing insulin use had me thinking that the only way to really see the drastic changes it can induce is to go into an area of use I'm not willing to risk at all.

If someone is making great gains off 10iu and 100 grams carbs then all the power to you but I don't see that being anywhere near the norm and generally a waste of time for the greater majority of those willing to use it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree, I don't think you'll see a whole lot if used at 10iu or lower. I would say 10iu 2x a day, EOD, yeah you'd see something. But just 10iu/day, no. 12iu is min. IMO, 20iu is max for most users. I would always start low and gradually build as needed due to desensitization.

 

[Wunderpus]

The thing I don't get about insulin use is,
None of the golden era boys used it. None
And they looked the best
This alone has me thinking it's use is overrated
Is this the new way to overcome bad genetics or a quick (er) way to the goal?

Then what's happens? Serious question, what happens when you halt your natural insulin production. That's what will happen right? Become a fucking diabetic?

Excuse my ignorance. But I'm all ears

If insulin really does help then I'm interested.
I'm stubborn and I will take my sweet time getting warmed up to a new idea
I wasn't one of those 20 some thing year olds than jumped on gear too soon and without a good base. I'm dedicated. Like you read about. And people continually to under estimate the body in terms of what it is capable of. When I'm in my darkest most motivated place is where I make my biggest gains. I have some terrible genetic traits that you prolly wouldn't know it now when you look at me. Dedication.

I'm here to play. Let's talk

In so many ways you're right here truk, and in just a few you're off, IMO.

None of our golden era heroes used it. Those guys were the epitome of hard work, smart and conservative drug usage and mostly great genetics. The best, truly. Those guys looked great, small waists, huge shoulders, barrel chest, killer arms and beefy legs. I love it. Nowadays, we have blocky freaks with rounded guts, I don't love that.

Now, is insulin to blame? Partially. It's also the GH and IGF-1.

However, the modern freaks can be using up to, I have heard from a few parties, 50iu a day of GH and well over 100iu insulin in the off season. IGF-1, I'm not sure how they're dosing it, and if it's even real etc. etc.

Now, you, me, and everyone else here will not be using those drugs to that level, or anywhere close, I figure. So, the risk of the gut and looking like a freak is relatively slim, IMO.

So, where does that bring you and I, and our friends here, with insulin? It's a tool, not a crutch. We need to use it wisely! My mentally has always been work hard, and smart. Not just "work smart, not hard." I want to MAXIMIZE my output, from what I put in. Let's use an example, the best I can:

Say I can put on 10lbs in the offseason of mostly quality mass with a good diet, training and gear usage.

Now, if I can use insulin to MAXIMIZE that and put on 15lbs total, why wouldn't I look into it? It doesn't mean my diet sucks, or my training is shit etc. It just means I am looking to get the most bang for my buck, in many ways. Insulin is cheap, scary cheap. It's simple to use, when used properly. And if cycled appropriately and conservatively (as laid out in my previous post), it is relatively safe. I am not worried about becoming a diabetic for using a short acting insulin, active for 5 or so hours after injection, for a few weeks on then a few weeks off. I think you risk it MORE with a longer acting insulin, multiple times a day, for an irresponsible amount of time.

Also, in terms of "maximizing results", insuling + GH + high test = way better than 1+1+1=3, it's a lot more like it =5. The synergy of the IGF spike from the GH, the nutrient shuttling of the insulin and the nitrogen retention, protein syntheses etc. from the test creates a really powerful stack. Think of it as 2g test amounts to less than 1g test, 500mg's a week dbol and 500mg's a week tren. The second cycle will DESTROY the first in terms of results.

I hope this makes sense, while not saying insulin IS the answer, it's an inexpensive way to maximize your gains on cycle and makes all the expensive food pay off even more.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

The ONE thing about insulin is you have to come clean about it to the wife. Given its potential implications that are the most severe of severe and the effects of those decisions could potentially destroy your family and your wife and kids future.

No man with good judgement or honest intentions can down play it's risk scenario. Not with out lying. In the end I'm not getting paid for this. And many here are not either. To accept such a risk seems foolish. Maybe it's the responsible dad and provider in me. Idk I'm not 20 any more. I tend to make better decisions the older I get. Shocker right?

 

[D-max]

When you first started did you check or monitor your glucose levels?

Also, was suggested to me that better than candy or something that requires chewing or doesn't dissolve fast, is the little tubes of frosting. They're only a couple ounces, have a screw on cap, and melt very quickly in your mouth. Won't get stuck in your throat so you choke either.

 

[Wunderpus]

When you first started did you check or monitor your glucose levels?

Also, was suggested to me that better than candy or something that requires chewing or doesn't dissolve fast, is the little tubes of frosting. They're only a couple ounces, have a screw on cap, and melt very quickly in your mouth. Won't get stuck in your throat so you choke either.

Irresponsibly, I did not. I didn't even think to, really. I should've, and I recommend it.

Frosting sounds interesting, I think gatorade is the fastest.

 

[Eman]

I think gatorade is the fastest

I think you're right, dextrose is the fastest sugar and that's the sweetener in Gatorade. So really, if you read a nutritional label and see dextrose in something it should be good.