Lipids skewed on just test?

[Eddie.]

Hello everyone, i'm trying to find out what in the heck happened and bloodwork came out slightly worse than i expected. I'm 36yo lifting 19 years natty and November 1st i jumped to test, i'm running 210mg test E per week, i was taking HCG and aromasin for estrogen managment. I weigh 240 with a good amount of bf, i estimate around 16-18. I did a pretty good blood panel few days before i start the Test and my LDL was 117, HDL 43, triglycerides 102 and total cholesterol 180. My fasted bg was 80 and HbA1C 5,5 so a little high.

When i start the test i also added berberine and red rice yeast for improving HbA1C and my lipids, i was eating at maintenance as i was waiting for these days to start a cut and get rid of the excess bodyfat. My meals were clean at 90% and all cooked by me, i had a free day (Saturday) to eat some sandwich in the morning and couple burgers with some fries for dinner, it was exactly what i was doing before i jumped to Test.

Today i did a hefty bloodwork to check where i am as i'm planning to start cutting next week, raise the T to 250 and in 2-3 weeks add 150 primo and after 8-10 weeks add anavar to finish my first "mini blast" and return to cruise. Results came back not as i expected. I have to say that today's bloodwork took place in a different lab because the previous one it was through insurance and now out of my pocket. So, amongst others like CBC, liver enzymes, kidney etc which all were good i was surprised to see a fasted blood glucose of 100, although the HbA1C is at 5 so 0,5 less and lipids are LDL 145, HDL 43, triglycerides 107 and total cholesterol 209.

Any idea how that could happen? Could be this discrepancy be due to different labs? Have you noticed the same when you change labs or they always came out the same? Could it be due to my cheat day of 2 days ago (saturday) because i overdid it a bit since it was my last before i start dieting? I know this could justify the elevated bg as it fluctuates pretty easily, but as far as lipids? The only positive is that did happen now that i'll go to caloric deficit so lipids i want to believe will fix anyways. I'm thinking pull labs again in a month or 2 and if it doesn't improve add some ezetimibe.

Before anyone asks i thought uploading the results but most of the markers are written in Greek and you won't be able to understand what's what. Thanks in advance.

 

[buck]

Which lab does the test should not matter. The range the lab uses is what needs to be looked at and not just the result number. But the results you posted should be standard from lab to lab. How hydrated you are can make a difference. And taking hormones messes with most every function in the body. What were your test and E2 levels from before you started gear and what are they on your cycle? Taking in 3x more then your body was likely making will change things to some degree.

 

[readalot]

See paper in link attached. Well known effect of abusing androgens.

Please help, Statin advice, Lipids are off

@Scruf Are you on a keto diet? In your first post you said you were in ketosis every day. If so, what do your macros look like? The reason I ask is because keto diets are usually very high in fats, and the most fucked up my lipids have ever been was when I tried a keto diet for a short time...

thinksteroids.com

Best wishes.

And well done starting at reasonable dosing. Post up the blood work happy to take a look.

 

[Eddie.]

Which lab does the test should not matter. The range the lab uses is what needs to be looked at and not just the result number. But the results you posted should be standard from lab to lab. How hydrated you are can make a difference. And taking hormones messes with most every function in the body. What were your test and E2 levels from before you started gear and what are they on your cycle? Taking in 3x more then your body was likely making will change things to some degree.

Ranges are the same in both labs with the exception of LDL in the first being <145 which i had 117 and in the second lab <130 in which i have 145. I was hydrated enough both times, 1,5 liter of water first thing in the morning. I think it's slightly less than half a gallon. My tt pre cycle was 645 and e2 was 40. After a month TT went 940 (i pin ed subq with castor oil and it takes time to build up) and e2 went down to 24 because i went quite hard with the AI. I dosed it less frequent and started HCG as well, i waited 3 weeks and went to re-check e2 and it was 77. No high e2 symptoms, i was just fine..i continued with the same protocol and about a month ago i switched HCG and went to pharma ovitrelle, went quite high, 3X500 per week as i was expecting balls to return to their pre cycle size and this lead to a high e2. Today my total test is 1450 and e2 106pg/ml. Still no e2 sides, no water retention, no higher bp, no acne, no nip sens..nothing, but i took half aromasin instead of 1/4 and i'll take another half in 3 days and continue as i was before because i already stopped the HCG in Friday.

 

[Eddie.]

See paper in link attached. Well known effect of abusing androgens.

Please help, Statin advice, Lipids are off

@Scruf Are you on a keto diet? In your first post you said you were in ketosis every day. If so, what do your macros look like? The reason I ask is because keto diets are usually very high in fats, and the most fucked up my lipids have ever been was when I tried a keto diet for a short time...

thinksteroids.com

Best wishes.

And well done starting at reasonable dosing. Post up the blood work happy to take a look.

I had the impression that test and in such low dose doesn't skew lipids, i'm aware of dht derivatives and orals but have no clue about test. HDL is the same in both measurements. It drives me crazy because while i was natty i was keeping fats moderate (0,3 - 0,4 gr/pound) to maintain a good amount of test, eating 4 whole eggs every day, having olive oil, butter etc and now that i'm on test i keep them lower. I rarely add fats beside some olive oil here n there and 3 grams omega 3's. Anyway, i'll start the red yeast rice again and in a month i will go check lipids again. I'm hoping with the caloric deficit and the fat i'll lose to lower the LDL and triglycerides at least because unfortunately primo and later anavar will probably lower HDL..

 

[readalot]

later anavar will probably lower HDL..

Hold on tight if you add in the oxandrolone. Hits the hdl and really skews the lipid particle counts (NMR test).

As you increase your weekly androgen load the lipids will only look worse.

 

[Eddie.]

Hold on tight if you add in the oxandrolone. Hits the hdl and really skews the lipid particle counts (NMR test).

As you increase your weekly androgen load the lipids will only look worse.

Even if i'm losing fat? Do you think ezetimibe could be helpful?

 

[readalot]

Even if i'm losing fat? Do you think ezetimibe could be helpful?

To clarify, my comment was on the AAS dose. With other changes comes additional factors that depend on your genes. For me eating a very high fat ketogenic diet dramatically improves lipids (especially trig/hdl-c ratio).

Sure, adding in additional meds can change your lipid panel. How that translates to your individual health outcome I don't know.

Adding ezetimibe to statin therapy: latest evidence and clinical implications

Statins are the hypolipemic treatment of choice for hyperlipidemia with confirmed atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (ASCVD) protective effect, proven even in normolipemic patients. But in rare situations, even with a high-dose treatment regimen, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Eddie.]

To clarify, my comment was on the AAS dose. With other changes comes additional factors that depend on your genes.

Yeah i get it. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Eddie.]

I did some bloods today to see how it's going, i'd really appreciate some opinions.

So at Feb 19 my lipids were

Cholesterol 209mg/dl
Triglycerides 107
HDL 43
LDL 145

Since then i raised test dose from 210 to 275mg and added 150mg primo while i started my cutting phase. For the last 25 days i'm taking 10mg ezetimibe and today my lipids are

Cholesterol 160mg/dl
Triglycerides 83
HDL 38
LDL 105

Overall i'm happy they improved despite the extra 200mg of AAS, with the exception of HDL which is due to primo, but i think at this point they're still considered elevated, right? I'm planning to throw 20mg cardarine which improves lipids as well.

Will be ok to proceed with these or should i pull the trigger on low rosuvostatin?

 

[AlexDavis43]

I did some bloods today to see how it's going, i'd really appreciate some opinions.

So at Feb 19 my lipids were

Cholesterol 209mg/dl
Triglycerides 107
HDL 43
LDL 145

Since then i raised test dose from 210 to 275mg and added 150mg primo while i started my cutting phase. For the last 25 days i'm taking 10mg ezetimibe and today my lipids are

Cholesterol 160mg/dl
Triglycerides 83
HDL 38
LDL 105

Overall i'm happy they improved despite the extra 200mg of AAS, with the exception of HDL which is due to primo, but i think at this point they're still considered elevated, right? I'm planning to throw 20mg cardarine which improves lipids as well.

Will be ok to proceed with these or should i pull the trigger on low rosuvostatin?

In terms of lipid numbers or actual risk... I wouldn't sweat the low HDL if you do cardio (eg running, zone 2/3, sweating, HR elevated for longer than a few minutes, etc.). Good vascular health should help so if something bad happens, it will be less bad.

Doc still pushing rosuvastatin with LDL 105? Not against it. Maybe unnecessary but your doc probably knows more family history, other risk factors not mentioned, etc.

 

[Eddie.]

In terms of lipid numbers or actual risk... I wouldn't sweat the low HDL if you do cardio (eg running, zone 2/3, sweating, HR elevated for longer than a few minutes, etc.). Good vascular health should help so if something bad happens, it will be less bad.

Doc still pushing rosuvastatin with LDL 105? Not against it. Maybe unnecessary but your doc probably knows more family history, other risk factors not mentioned, etc.

Thanks for replying. I do fasted walks every day and 4 times light running post workout at 140-150 bpm.

Haven't seen any doc lately, i pay out of pocket my bloodwork and ancillaries. I just see some guys telling that LDL ideally might be at 50s - 60s but without statins it's almost impossible to go that low. I'll avoid statins for now and reassess later on upcoming bloodwork then. I believe ezetimibe and cardarine would do the job for now.

 

[Jin23]

The effects of anabolic steroids on blood lipids

peterbond.org

 

[Eddie.]

The effects of anabolic steroids on blood lipids

peterbond.org

Thanks, i'll read it! Although from a quick look i see refers on apo A + B and where i am it seems difficult to test these markers as no one does it and doctors don't ask for them. It's like the eGFR, i asked on the lab if there's a chance we test it and how much will this cost and they were looking me pretty strange. One of them said the only way to test eGFR is to go to hospital and run a 24 hour urine collection and test it.

Anyways, i already know aas raise LDL and lower HDL i'm just trying to understand at which point you have to deploy statins and what's the upper limit for lipids to be considered tolerable without them. Cheers!

 

[Jin23]

The effects of anabolic steroids on blood lipids

peterbond.org

Thanks, i'll read it! Although from a quick look i see refers on apo A + B and where i am it seems difficult to test these markers as no one does it and doctors don't ask for them. It's like the eGFR, i asked on the lab if there's a chance we test it and how much will this cost and they were looking me pretty strange. One of them said the only way to test eGFR is to go to hospital and run a 24 hour urine collection and test it.

Anyways, i already know aas raise LDL and lower HDL i'm just trying to understand at which point you have to deploy statins and what's the upper limit for lipids to be considered tolerable without them. Cheers!

When does heart disease begin (and what this tells us about prevention)? - Peter Attia

Before I get into this post I want to lay a few things out. This post is written mostly for...

peterattiamd.com

There is no short answer to this, especially on an aas board where health standards are, well, ... skewed, to say the least. This is something you're going to have to do your own research and make your own conclusions. Its also been discussed ad nauseum, so you wont get much help from senior members as we don't like repeating ourselves and you don't need noobs giving you their uneducated opinions.

I'll highlight the importance of keeping inflammation down (measured for instance via hsCRP), as inflammation + bad lipids is what's particularly atherogenic, especially over long term (people who don't trt but b&c) and I'll emphasize the use of rosuvastatin (over other statins) in low dosages first, before going to normal dosages, as even a small rosuvastatin dose of 2.5 mg x 2 a week can almost halve some people's ldl.

 

[TurtleTank]

I defer to the smarter bros on here, but in my experience, I started on just TRT before I started blasting, and on 200mg Test, my HDL started to dip to the bottom of the range, and my diet is nearly perfect.

Also, my liver enzymes have been elevated for years, even before I took my first PED. Still working with the doc to try and figure out why. I say that to say, don't discount another issue that's completely separate from your AAS use.

 

[Eddie.]

When does heart disease begin (and what this tells us about prevention)? - Peter Attia

Before I get into this post I want to lay a few things out. This post is written mostly for...

peterattiamd.com

There is no short answer to this, especially on an aas board where health standards are, well, ... skewed, to say the least. This is something you're going to have to do your own research and make your own conclusions. Its also been discussed ad nauseum, so you wont get much help from senior members as we don't like repeating ourselves and you don't need noobs giving you their uneducated opinions.

I'll highlight the importance of keeping inflammation down (measured for instance via hsCRP), as inflammation + bad lipids is what's particularly atherogenic, especially over long term (people who don't trt but b&c) and I'll emphasize the use of rosuvastatin (over other statins) in low dosages first, before going to normal dosages, as even a small rosuvastatin dose of 2.5 mg x 2 a week can almost halve some people's ldl.

Understood, i'm not trying to get spoonfed with a "take this at that dose and you'll be ok" type of answer, just trying to get a read on. It's a person depentent thing also, by reading other's thread i can't figure if i better need a statin or not, some guys have 200+ LDL or single digit HDL. I tested regular CRP and it came at 0,8 with <5 range. I'll probably wait until next bloodwork and if things are same or worse i'll try low dose rosuvostatin. Thanks!

I defer to the smarter bros on here, but in my experience, I started on just TRT before I started blasting, and on 200mg Test, my HDL started to dip to the bottom of the range, and my diet is nearly perfect.

Also, my liver enzymes have been elevated for years, even before I took my first PED. Still working with the doc to try and figure out why. I say that to say, don't discount another issue that's completely separate from your AAS use.

Yeah i agree with that. Thankfully my HDL remained the same after 4 months on just test, now with primo which is notorius for wrecking HDL it dropped by 5 points.

 

[TurtleTank]

Understood, i'm not trying to get spoonfed with a "take this at that dose and you'll be ok" type of answer, just trying to get a read on. It's a person depentent thing also, by reading other's thread i can't figure if i better need a statin or not, some guys have 200+ LDL or single digit HDL. I tested regular CRP and it came at 0,8 with <5 range. I'll probably wait until next bloodwork and if things are same or worse i'll try low dose rosuvostatin. Thanks!



Yeah i agree with that. Thankfully my HDL remained the same after 4 months on just test, now with primo which is notorius for wrecking HDL it dropped by 5 points.

We have some great guys on here, but if there's any way you can find a doc who you can be honest with about your AAS use, that would probably be best. I'm super honest with my doc and then I compare what my doc says to what I find out in my own research.

Yeahhh so many people love primo.. It's not high on my list of things to try. Even if it gives me great results, if it messes up my bloodwork, that's more time I have to take off, meaning less overall progress.

 

[Jin23]

Understood, i'm not trying to get spoonfed with a "take this at that dose and you'll be ok" type of answer, just trying to get a read on. It's a person depentent thing also, by reading other's thread i can't figure if i better need a statin or not, some guys have 200+ LDL or single digit HDL. I tested regular CRP and it came at 0,8 with <5 range. I'll probably wait until next bloodwork and if things are same or worse i'll try low dose rosuvostatin. Thanks!

A crp of 0.8 is not bad for on cycle. A crp < 0.5 should be your goal. As you mentioned that you are cutting, the leaner you get, the lower your crp will be. But you can ofc lower your inflammation in other ways. Statins lower inflammation too.

 

[Eddie.]

A crp of 0.8 is not bad for on cycle. A crp < 0.5 should be your goal. As you mentioned that you are cutting, the leaner you get, the lower your crp will be. But you can ofc lower your inflammation in other ways. Statins lower inflammation too.

Oh do they? That's nice. I ordered a CRP for the first time because for the previous 4 months i was taking pharma Test and didn't bother to test it, now i'm switched to UGL for both test and primo and at 0,8 it seems ok.

I've read that crp could slightly elevate from various reasons such as frequent pinning and i'm pinning ed. Also i did the blood test a day after workout which i think can alter it slightly too.