Low E2 -- Test Cyp q

[Sonny]

Hi Guys:

I've been off of Test Cyp for 25 days and have been on daily HCG since then. Latest labs...no Test Cyp for 17 days when I got these days.

Total T: 475 (241-827)
Free T: 12.8 (9.5-43.0)
DHT: 23 Low (25-75)
E2: 17 (10-50)
LH: 0.2 Low (1.5-9.3)

I'm still working on the HCG dosing (currently 220 iu/day...was 200 iu/day for 2 weeks leading up to this lab).

Can I do anything about my E2 and DHT or will they both come up with a little more HCG? I'm starting on the low side and adding HCG as needed. HCG is the only TRT med that I am on right now.

Also, how long will it be before I can assume that the Test Cyp is completely gone from my system?

Thanks,
Sonny

 

[mranak]

There isn't much testosterone cypinonate left in your system at all.

A higher dosage of hCG can be expected raise your testosterone which in turn should raise your E2. Based on your labs, 220 IU of hCG/day clearly is insufficient. You either need more hCG or you need a little exogenous testosterone added to the mix.

 

[pmgamer18]

Hi Sonny your E2 is fine the range for any age man is 10 to 30 your 17. As for DHT I can't say I know when it is low it is not good for your libido. In this link they talk about levels for Total and Free T being in the upper 1/3 of the labs range and E2 to like I said 10 to 30.
http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-txt/t-prtcl-130.html
You need to go by how you feel not what the labs say.
I added Hcg 500 IU's to my 150 mg. Depo T shots every week. I was to my Dr. last Monday and he told me to come in for blood tests after my 15th Hcg shot.
If you feel ok say on what your doing I feel it is to soon to tell.
Phil

 

[Sonny]

Thanks, guys. I got off of Test Cyp because something in it (either the Test or maybe the BA) was interacting with some other psych drugs that I take. HCG doesn't do that to me, so I opted to try HCG alone vs no HRT at all.

Phil: You are exactly right in that how I feel is the best way to determine what to do. The labs are a nice bonus, but they don't tell the whole story. With the labs though, I will say that how I feel has matched them pretty close. When T/Free T has been low, I often feel tired and laggy. When it has been too high, I feel agitated and depressed.

I stopped Test Cyp on May 20. On days 7-14 after being off being of Test Cyp, I felt absolutely fantastic...probably the best that I've ever felt on HRT. I was motivated, happy, and my wife was hiding from me. A simple analysis would indicate that at that point, the previous 80mg Test Cyp shot had gone through 1 half life. Ie, there was a small amount of Test Cyp in my system coupled with the daily HCG.

Perhaps I should try daily HCG with 40mg/week of Test Cyp? I think I will give the "more HCG" approach a shot first though. It keeps things simple.

What do you guys think?

Sonny

 

[mranak]

Sounds like a resonable plan.

 

[pmgamer18]

So are you saying you feel dam good now or have you back slid a little we are all different my levels need to be much higher then yours. If you feel dam good now don't do anything if it works work it.
Phil

 

[Sonny]

Phil, I have defnitely slid back. Tired a lot, mind is fuzzy, etc.

I've been off of Test Cyp for 27 days now. From day 1-14, I was doing 200iu per day of HCG. I started sliding, so I from day 15 until now, I've been on 220iu per day of HCG. It's better, but still not ideal. I'm thinking of going up to 250iu/day after next Monday. Next Monday is when I get lab work done.

Sonny

 

[pmgamer18]

As you go higher you need to keep an eye on your E2. If taking more of the Hcg does not do the job then you may need to add T.
Have you read David Z's posts on Hcg.
Phil

 

[pmgamer18]

I hope these links will take you to David's Primer on TRT, Hcg and E2 Management part 1 of 2.
Phil
https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134235700
Part 2
https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134235701

 

[Sonny]

Thanks for the links, Phil. I had read part 1 already, but not part 2. Excellent work, David!

I've been worried about making my E2 jump too high, so I've been doing dosage increases very slowly while trying to get lab work in to double-check. 17 is the lowest it is has ever been though. While I was on both Test Cyp and HCG (150 iu 4x per week), I'd see E2 in the mid to high 20's.

So, I think I have some breathing room there...we'll see!

Sonny

 

[Sonny]

Ok, guys...updated results.

For the last set of labs, I had previously been on 200iu/day of HCG. After my last labs, I upped it to 220 iu/day. Test Cyp should be out of my system at this point.

Current HCG Dosage: 220 iu/day
# days since last Test Cyp injection: 31
Last Test Cyp injection amount: 80mg

Total T: 425 (241-827)
Free T: 16.5 (9.5-43.0)
E2: 17 (10-50)
DHT: 23 L (25-75)
LH: < 0.2 L (1.5-9.3)

So upping from 200iu/day to 220iu/day doesn't seem to have done much. I have upped it again to 250 iu/day. We'll see how it goes.

So far, I feel tired a lot, my libido is down, and my concentration has been sketchy. Despite all that, it is better than when my levels are too high.

Sonny

 

[DavidZ]

Sonny,

I'm surpised that your T didn't go up with a 10% increase in your daily HCG dosage. Are you sure you're secondary? If you're T doesn't go up at 250IU/day, then you'll definitely want to add some exogenous T. What was your T before starting TRT?

I don't think E2 is an issue for you, at least not yet. The key is to get your T right first. Once you do that, then look at E2.

 

[Sonny]

Sonny,

I'm surpised that your T didn't go up with a 10% increase in your daily HCG dosage. Are you sure you're secondary? If you're T doesn't go up at 250IU/day, then you'll definitely want to add some exogenous T. What was your T before starting TRT?

I don't think E2 is an issue for you, at least not yet. The key is to get your T right first. Once you do that, then look at E2.

Hi David,

When I initially pursued HRT, my total T and free T levels were low. Total T was consistently in the low to mid 200's. LH and FSH were in the normal range. I don't have those labs in front of me, but I remember LH being 5.x or so on the lab used to determine whether or not I would go on HRT.

I think you guys are correct about the E2. I've never had a problem with it being high, but i never had it quite so low either, so I mentioned it.

Let's see what 250 iu/night does.

Sonny

 

[androjello]

If your LH and FSH were in the normal range, then why do you believe you are secondary and hCG will be sufficient for you?

 

[Sonny]

If your LH and FSH were in the normal range, then why do you believe you are secondary and hCG will be sufficient for you?

Primary hypogonadism is usually spotted by high levels of LH and FSH and low levels of T. Ie, your body is being told to make more T, but the testicles are not responding.

Additionally, I respond to the HCG. I responded to it very strongly when it was introduced into the Test Cyp monotherapy. Swale's protocol of adding 500 iu/week of HCG boosted my T levels by over 200% vs Test Cyp alone. I had to drop the Test Cyp down and spread the HCG out over 5 days to get my levels back into the high-normal range.

Even on HCG alone, my T levels are roughly double what they were before HRT. As David said, exogeneous T may be necessary to get me to where I need to be, but the HCG itself is doing something.

What makes you think that I am not secondary and the HCG alone will not work?

Sonny

 

[pmgamer18]

You could be both you are not just primary that is for sure when I first got tested my Total T was 120 and my LH and FSH were at the top of the range.
I have talked to men that are both and this can be you. If your testis can only make so much T all the Hcg in the world is not going to do anything. And doing to much is going to do harm.
Phil

 

[Sonny]

Ok, another update.

I upped the HCG to 280 iu/night. After being at this dose for roughly 2 weeks, I got my levels tested again:

Total T: 409 (241-827)
Free T: 22.5 (9.5-43.0)
E2: 34 (10-50)
DHT: 40 (25-75)
LH: 0.2 L (1.5-9.3)

So, despite upping the HCG again, my Total T is still low. However, E2, DHT, and Free T all went up.

I have been feeling really good since going to 280 iu/night. Libido has been fierce, I've been sleeping good, and my outlook on life is good.

Total T is low by HRT standards, but I feel good enough now that I don't wanna mess with anything. I've spent over a year trying to get dosages right and there were times where the numbers were right, but I didn't feel good.

Sonny

 

[1cc]

Sonny,

Congratulations!! That is very interesting. It looks like the HCG is doing a lot more than regular T supplementation is.

Have you tested your Progesterone and Total Estrogens? It would be a good idea to see where you are at on these numbers, because HCG increases progesterone and I think Total Estrogens as well.

 

[James]

Glad to hear you finally found something that works! Is it satisfactory enough that you are going to stick with it?

 

[Matt Muscle]

Ok, another update.

I upped the HCG to 280 iu/night. After being at this dose for roughly 2 weeks, I got my levels tested again:

Total T: 409 (241-827)
Free T: 22.5 (9.5-43.0)
E2: 34 (10-50)
DHT: 40 (25-75)
LH: 0.2 L (1.5-9.3)

So, despite upping the HCG again, my Total T is still low. However, E2, DHT, and Free T all went up.

I have been feeling really good since going to 280 iu/night. Libido has been fierce, I've been sleeping good, and my outlook on life is good.

Total T is low by HRT standards, but I feel good enough now that I don't wanna mess with anything. I've spent over a year trying to get dosages right and there were times where the numbers were right, but I didn't feel good.

Sonny

Sonny I dont think all guys need a level of T approaching the upper limit... its definetly all about how you feel. 400 may be just fine if other hormone levels are ok too. There are many healthy guys walking around with levels like that who have great libidos and have no symptoms of low T. I am sure that for some taking the T level too high and that may be around the 800 mark can actually inhibit libido and the positive effects.
I will be most interested to see if your current regime continues to give you this good result.