Makes no fuckin sense...

[Heavy Iron]

My buddy is running a TRT dose.

Before TRT test levels were 301
ng/dl. Estrogen 15 pg/ml

6 weeks in 48 hours post pin pulled bloods. Test came back at 995 ng/dl and estrogen is >2 pg/ml??? Ultrasensative estrogen panel preformed.

He said he was having sensitivity to nips but nothing crazy. That was 3 days before blood work and I said let's wait and see what the bloods say. Called lab and said has to be a mistake. But they basically said it's not fuck off lol. Any thoughts??

 

[Evom1]

I imagine you mean <2pg/ml

Is he taking an AI or any compound beyond testosterone?

 

[Heavy Iron]

I imagine you mean <2pg/ml

Is he taking an AI or any compound beyond testosterone?

Correct* <2. (I've been getting more and more dyslexic)

No AI and no other compounds. It's his first time ever taking exogenous test. But he has listened to me the whole way through with bloods, dosing, etc.

The only logical explanation is the test is somehow wrong. I have never personally taken the ULTRA sensitive estradiol. Just sensitive. I'll screenshot the results.

 

[Heavy Iron]

 

[HB_22]

It is impossible to have a total t level of 900 and no estrogen. Either the lab fucked up or he's taking too much AI.

 

[Jin23]

My buddy is running a TRT dose.

Before TRT test levels were 301
ng/dl. Estrogen 15 pg/ml

6 weeks in 48 hours post pin pulled bloods. Test came back at 995 ng/dl and estrogen is >2 pg/ml??? Ultrasensative estrogen panel preformed.

He said he was having sensitivity to nips but nothing crazy. That was 3 days before blood work and I said let's wait and see what the bloods say. Called lab and said has to be a mistake. But they basically said it's not fuck off lol. Any thoughts??

Just do another test. If ultra sensitive is to expensive, do a normal test and add crp (crp is an indicator of how accurate is the test). Having a free T of 240 (is not trt fyi) and crashed e2 kinda doesn't make sense unless a serious lack of aromatase expression but is kinda negated by the 15 pg ml at 300 TT (although admittedly that value can be totally wrong).

 

[Heavy Iron]

Just do another test. If ultra sensitive is to expensive, do a normal test and add crp (crp is an indicator of how accurate is the test). Having a free T of 240 (is not trt fyi) and crashed e2 kinda doesn't make sense unless a serious lack of aromatase expression but is kinda negated by the 15 pg ml at 300 TT (although admittedly that value can be totally wrong).

I'm not too sure why he even ordered an ultrasensative test. But unless his SHGB was low and giving low total numbers while his FT was higher before an introduction of exogenous test is a moot point when we're talking about quality of life. So for his quality of life to be improved as it has with a TT of 995 (which is admittedly high in a clinical standpoint) is the goal. Now knowing his FT was really high adjustments can be made. But kinda stuck at this point until we know wtf is going on with his estrogen. So what makes you think his first round of bloods can be totally wrong?

 

[Mac11wildcat]

I would retest. Just the hormone panel.

 

[Country Club Hero]

what about his supps? Taking DIM or boron etc? Some peoples E2 gets significantly affected by some of these natural supps.

 

[Jin23]

But unless his SHGB was low and giving low total numbers while his FT was higher before an introduction of exogenous test is a moot point when we're talking about quality of life. So for his quality of life to be improved as it has with a TT of 995 (which is admittedly high in a clinical standpoint) is the goal. Now knowing his FT was really high adjustments can be made.

I'm trying to put my head around this. Can you reword please.

So what makes you think his first round of bloods can be totally wrong?

Nothing really, besides the fact that e2 was not sensitive and the lower the E2 the less accurate ECLIA is. The low E2 and the low TT do correlate though.

Again, re test. But imo E2 is fine. I'd lower the test dosage or, spread it out into at least 3 shots a week to keep the e2 down and shbg a bit more up. Although shbg can and probably will rise with some time.

 

[Sustanation79]

I’d be looking at prolactin levels more so than estrogen for sensitive nipples.

 

[Heavy Iron]

I'm trying to put my head around this. Can you reword please.

Basically saying despite what his free test was prior to going down this road, which was unknown, his quality of life was shitty. So to discover now, with total test at 995 and the quality of life improved, and the newly discovered free test being high, why would one say this isn't TRT just because of elevated free test. I'm not being disagreeable or argumentative. Just trying to understand better.

I have an understanding that someone can go to a TRT clinic have low ass total test numbers, but free test be in a range that's deemed acceptable, but still feel like complete shit.

Again, re test. But imo E2 is fine. I'd lower the test dosage or, spread it out into at least 3 shots a week to keep the e2 down and shbg a bit more up. Although shbg can and probably will rise with some time.

Re test is the only option for sure at this point. He was dosing 125mg per week on one shot. He said the peaks felt good but then not so good a few days leading up to next dose. I said you can try to dose in 2 shots. He did so and that's when the sensitivity started and stated he felt better at one shot. Finally got him to make a handle so he will be in here once approved. Lowering the dose seems like the smart thing to do. Just need this damn E2 reading.

I've never had to control my estrogen levels. Even with TT 4k+

So I appreciate your time brother.

 

[Jin23]

why would one say this isn't TRT just because of elevated free test.

Because levels are far outside physiological range. TRT being "replacement" ... You wont ever have such high dosages naturally, your body is not meant to operate at that level. Especially if you went from (probably) almost hypogonadal free T levels to 240, he probably feels like he's on a small cycle. And that's a sound reflection of the disturbed homeostasis goin on in his body (the on feeling). For trt you want to be in range, probably somewhere at 75% of the range.

 

[Demondosage]

I’d kill for labs that looked like his

 

[Heavy Iron]

Because levels are far outside physiological range. TRT being "replacement" ... You wont ever have such high dosages naturally, your body is not meant to operate at that level. Especially if you went from (probably) almost hypogonadal free T levels to 240, he probably feels like he's on a small cycle. And that's a sound reflection of the disturbed homeostasis goin on in his body (the on feeling). For trt you want to be in range, probably somewhere at 75% of the range.

Gotcha. Yeah he's more "enhanced" rather than on replacement. Makes sense. We're gonna pull some bloods for him again and go from there. I'm grabbing some for myself this Thursday too.

 

[Heavy Iron]

I’d kill for labs that looked like his

They're pretty damn good (besides the phantom E2 lol). Even those igf numbers look great.

 

[Demondosage]

Just remember that everyone is somewhat different in the AI department. I myself rarely ever need any, been on TRT over 10 years now and my numbers stay in normal range without any AI. I can take a couple tabs of arimadex and crash the shit out of my estrogen

 

[cdoubleu]

Is he experiencing any low e2 type symptoms?

 

[Heavy Iron]

Just remember that everyone is somewhat different in the AI department. I myself rarely ever need any, been on TRT over 10 years now and my numbers stay in normal range without any AI. I can take a couple tabs of arimadex and crash the shit out of my estrogen

For sure man. And I'm not playing doctor lol. Just trying to help a brother out. TRT without insurance is a bitch and I offered this as an alternative. I think once he is dialed in and finds what works for him life will improve. Just trying to approach it from a harm reduction standpoint. Which is why I'm pulling bloods. I know how I feel I probably need to donate some blood too. But even with 750mg of test a week I don't need an AI. So it's somewhat of a new territory for me to navigate with him.

 

[Heavy Iron]

Is he experiencing any low e2 type symptoms?

No. And that's why this doesn't make sense to me. Experiencing high symptoms. Sensitive nips, libido is good but not as good as weeks 2-5, energy is good, killing it in the gym, emotionally well. Not lethargic, or hurting bones, etc. like what is typical with a crashed or low E2.