My PCT Human Guinea pig experiment... PRETTY GOOD RESULTS!

Phreezer

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My Human Guinea pig PCT experiment......

Like the subject line says...I performed a little PCT experiment with Clomid and HCG...A local friend of mine was nice enough to volunteer and be the Guinea pig for my study. I had no real involvment with his training or diet...I was only involved with the Administration of his Anabolics and his Post Cycle Therapy. This was supposed to be a 20 week cycle (which I laid out for him before he started) but he came off early because his wife expressed a very strong desire to become pregnant. So he came off early and asked me to lay out his PCT for him as well.


Here was the cycle:

Weeks 1-2 1.25 grams of test EW - EQ 200mg - Deca 300mg
Weeks 3-14 750mg Test EW - EQ 200mg Deca 300mg
Weeks 15-17 500mg Test EW (he had less test than he had originaly thought)

Pre cycle Stats:
Age: 32
Weight: 212lbs
Height: 5'11"
BF (I'm guessing here but you could clearly see his top two abs so I'm thinking it was about 14-15%)

Post cycle stats:
Weight238lbs
Height: Same
BF ( was a little more bloated but the abs were only slightly visable not as well as when he began.. I'd say he gained 1-2% on his BF and judging from his moon face he was retaining a fair amount of water)

Post cycle Therapy Starting April 30th: (Three days out from last Test shot)

Days 1-3 HCG 1000IU's ED Liquid Clomid 200mg ED
Days 4-10 HCG 1000IU's ED Liquid Clomid 100mg ED
Days 11-21 Liquid Clomid 100mg ED
Days 22-33 Liquid Clomid 50mg ED

Now Two weeks out from the time PCT ended:

Age: 32
Weight 227lbs
Height Same
BF Same or perhaps A bit better than before the cycle.. His top two abs are very visable and the outlines of two other abs are slightly visable... I would guess somewhere around 13%bf.

He stated that his testicles returned to normal size within about 7 days after starting the clomid and HCG. He did complain that his sex drive was noticbly lower throughout the entire PCT, but did not need Viagra or Cialis to perform. And here is the really Good news! (Which Is why I'm posting this tonight instead of waiting two more weeks) He called me tonight to tell me that his wife said she is nearly a week late, and a Home pregnancy test states that she is pregnant!.. This has not been confirmed by a medical doctor... but it is definitly promising... The fact that he was able to conceive a child within about six weeks or so after coming off a 17 week cycle is impressive...

So judging from these results I feel that from my own first hand experience with this type of PCT administration and now seeing the results from someone else running their PCT in the exact same manner as my own, I believe that this is truly an effective way to run Post cycle therapy!

Chad Nickels eat your heart out,,,, lol... ;)
 
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Im just curious... since HCG is a synthetic LH and Clomid just stimulates LH production... would using the two consecitvely (wow I cant spell that word to save my life right now) be a bad idea?... I mean... I dont want to burn out my LH receptors... as I dont think anyone does. .. so Does taking both at the same time as aposed to taking Clomid after taking HCG increase the chance of desensatizing ones LH receptors?

thanks bro...
 
Phreezer said:
Like the subject line says...I performed a little PCT experiment with Clomid and HCG...A local friend of mine was nice enough to volunteer and be the Guinea pig for my study. I had no real involvment with his training or diet...I was only involved with the Administration of his Anabolics and his Post Cycle Therapy. This was supposed to be a 20 week cycle (which I laid out for him before he started) but he came off early because his wife expressed a very strong desire to become pregnant. So he came off early and asked me to lay out his PCT for him as well.


Here was the cycle:

Weeks 1-2 1.25 grams of test EW - EQ 200mg - Deca 300mg
Weeks 3-14 750mg Test EW - EQ 200mg Deca 300mg
Weeks 15-17 500mg Test EW (he had less test than he had originaly thought)

Pre cycle Stats:
Age: 32
Weight: 212lbs
Height: 5'11"
BF (I'm guessing here but you could clearly see his top two abs so I'm thinking it was about 14-15%)

Post cycle stats:
Weight238lbs
Height: Same
BF ( was a little more bloated but the abs were only slightly visable not as well as when he began.. I'd say he gained 1-2% on his BF and judging from his moon face he was retaining a fair amount of water)

Post cycle Therapy Starting April 30th: (Three days out from last Test shot)

Days 1-3 HCG 1000IU's ED Liquid Clomid 200mg ED
Days 4-10 HCG 1000IU's ED Liquid Clomid 100mg ED
Days 11-21 Liquid Clomid 100mg ED
Days 22-33 Liquid Clomid 50mg ED

Now Two weeks out from the time PCT ended:

Age: 32
Weight 227lbs
Height Same
BF Same or perhaps A bit better than before the cycle.. His top two abs are very visable and the outlines of two other abs are slightly visable... I would guess somewhere around 13%bf.

He stated that his testicles returned to normal size within about 7 days after starting the clomid and HCG. He did complain that his sex drive was noticbly lower throughout the entire PCT, but did not need Viagra or Cialis to perform. And here is the really Good news! (Which Is why I'm posting this tonight instead of waiting two more weeks) He called me tonight to tell me that his wife said she is nearly a week late, and a Home pregnancy test states that she is pregnant!.. This has not been confirmed by a medical doctor... but it is definitly promising... The fact that he was able to conceive a child within about six weeks or so after coming off a 17 week cycle is impressive...

So judging from these results I feel that from my own first hand experience with this type of PCT administration and now seeing the results from someone else running their PCT in the exact same manner as my own, I believe that this is truly an effective way to run Post cycle therapy!

Chad Nickels eat your heart out,,,, lol... ;)



That pct with Hcg seems way too much 1000 ius ed,.There has to be some aromazation...and clomid at 200 mgs,.I mean clomid can work for you and also it can go agaisnt you by converting to estrogen.

But it is impressive what i read on this paragraph..


Good job

He called me tonight to tell me that his wife said she is nearly a week late, and a Home pregnancy test states that she is pregnant!.. This has not been confirmed by a medical doctor... but it is definitly promising... The fact that he was able to conceive a child within about six weeks or so after coming off a 17 week cycle is impressive...


fina
 
Tank01 said:
Im just curious... since HCG is a synthetic LH and Clomid just stimulates LH production... would using the two consecitvely (wow I cant spell that word to save my life right now) be a bad idea?... I mean... I dont want to burn out my LH receptors... as I dont think anyone does. .. so Does taking both at the same time as aposed to taking Clomid after taking HCG increase the chance of desensatizing ones LH receptors?

thanks bro...


I'm not a doctor so I can't answer this question with real certainty Tank.. you do bring up an interesting point... however, I doubt that 10 days of HCG and 3 days (in the introduction phase of HCG) of high clomid dosaging would burn out ones LH receptors..... Could there be an increased chance of desensatization?? I honestly don't know.... I've actually never even thought about it before... But I would have to say that running Nolva or femarra while using HCG would easily be an acceptable alternative....and I'm sure would yield very similar results....

FinaFreak... HCG at 1000IU's is not an overly excessive amount... from your post you make it sound like it's crazy.. however... for a great many people ... (I was recommended this dosage from HOGG) and myself included.. do not respond to less than 1000IU's...And since Clomid is an estrogen antagonist...how can it convert to estrogen...and what exactly are you referring to when you speak of aromization on hcg?
 
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well... Im going to stick to the tried and true method you told me about ages ago when I was truely a newb on this board. 1000iu per day for 10 days followed by the clomid for 3-4 weeks (standard doseing pattern)... If you do every run accross... or if anyone is a doc or has info regarding LH burnout and what phreezer posted, please contribute!

:cool:
 
Phreezer said:
I'm not a doctor so I can't answer this question with real certainty Tank.. you do bring up an interesting point... however, I doubt that 10 days of HCG and 3 days (in the introduction phase of HCG) of high clomid dosaging would burn out ones LH receptors..... Could there be an increased chance of desensatization?? I honestly don't know.... I've actually never even thought about it before... But I would have to say that running Nolva or femarra while using HCG would easily be an acceptable alternative....and I'm sure would yield very similar results....

FinaFreak... HCG at 1000IU's is not an overly excessive amount... from your post you make it sound like it's crazy.. however... for a great many people ... (I was recommended this dosage from HOGG) and myself included.. do not respond to less than 1000IU's...And since Clomid is an estrogen antagonist...how can it convert to estrogen...and what exactly are you referring to when you speak of aromization on hcg?


I read if you add too much hcg there is goin to be a spill over to estrogen..I guess 1000 iu a day aint much,.starting to think about it,. Im stuck on every 3 day 2,500 ius. I need to catch up on research,. :(


fina
 
Phreezer said:
Like the subject line says...I performed a little PCT experiment with Clomid and HCG...A local friend of mine was nice enough to volunteer and be the Guinea pig for my study. I had no real involvment with his training or diet...I was only involved with the Administration of his Anabolics and his Post Cycle Therapy. This was supposed to be a 20 week cycle (which I laid out for him before he started) but he came off early because his wife expressed a very strong desire to become pregnant. So he came off early and asked me to lay out his PCT for him as well.


Here was the cycle:

Weeks 1-2 1.25 grams of test EW - EQ 200mg - Deca 300mg
Weeks 3-14 750mg Test EW - EQ 200mg Deca 300mg
Weeks 15-17 500mg Test EW (he had less test than he had originaly thought)

Pre cycle Stats:
Age: 32
Weight: 212lbs
Height: 5'11"
BF (I'm guessing here but you could clearly see his top two abs so I'm thinking it was about 14-15%)

Post cycle stats:
Weight238lbs
Height: Same
BF ( was a little more bloated but the abs were only slightly visable not as well as when he began.. I'd say he gained 1-2% on his BF and judging from his moon face he was retaining a fair amount of water)

Post cycle Therapy Starting April 30th: (Three days out from last Test shot)

Days 1-3 HCG 1000IU's ED Liquid Clomid 200mg ED
Days 4-10 HCG 1000IU's ED Liquid Clomid 100mg ED
Days 11-21 Liquid Clomid 100mg ED
Days 22-33 Liquid Clomid 50mg ED

Now Two weeks out from the time PCT ended:

Age: 32
Weight 227lbs
Height Same
BF Same or perhaps A bit better than before the cycle.. His top two abs are very visable and the outlines of two other abs are slightly visable... I would guess somewhere around 13%bf.

He stated that his testicles returned to normal size within about 7 days after starting the clomid and HCG. He did complain that his sex drive was noticbly lower throughout the entire PCT, but did not need Viagra or Cialis to perform. And here is the really Good news! (Which Is why I'm posting this tonight instead of waiting two more weeks) He called me tonight to tell me that his wife said she is nearly a week late, and a Home pregnancy test states that she is pregnant!.. This has not been confirmed by a medical doctor... but it is definitly promising... The fact that he was able to conceive a child within about six weeks or so after coming off a 17 week cycle is impressive...

So judging from these results I feel that from my own first hand experience with this type of PCT administration and now seeing the results from someone else running their PCT in the exact same manner as my own, I believe that this is truly an effective way to run Post cycle therapy!

Chad Nickels eat your heart out,,,, lol... ;)


cool very cool...I like the research
 
I found this to be very informative article, you may have seen it around. It was developed by a well known author who has published much about AAS. He advocates a much higher HCG application as part of PCT planning.


O.K. You have been on an awesome 4-month cycle of Sustanon and Dianabol. Youve gained a massive 20 lbs, and are extremely pleased with your results. You cant stop looking in the mirror. But there is a problem now starting to eat away at you. You are going to run out of steroids very soon (you know you need a break anyway), and your testicles are the size of raisins.
Your body is producing less testosterone than a 9-year-old girl, and you are scrambling to figure out what to do to avoid a nasty post-cycle crash that could potentially strip away some of your hard-earned muscle. The opinions on how to restore endogenous testosterone production post-cycle seem to be different everywhere you look.
What option is best? Without an understanding of exactly what is going on in your body, and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing the right post-cycle program can be quite confusing. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the role of anti-estrogens and HCG during this delicate window of time, while detailing an effective strategy for their use.

The Axis

The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your bodys natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response.
LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed.
Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.

Testicular Desensitization

Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks.
Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started.
This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.
Post-Cycle LH Levels

Post Cycle Testosterone Levels

Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.

The Role Of Anti-Estrogens

It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher.
Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens.
Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.

HCG

So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH.
Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources.
We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.

Finalizing The Program

An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2), which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly.
Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone.
This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added (my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)).
Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.
Sample Post-cycle Plan:
Week Amount
Week 3: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily

In Closing

I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back.
In fact, we see that LH doesnt even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.
Be sure to also check out:
Hepatoxicty: Fact or Fiction? :: Author Rea's Steroid Q & A!
References
1. Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: Clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, Testosterone and seminal fluid analysis in normal men. J. Mauss, G. Borsch et al. Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84
2. Desensitization to gonadotropins in cultured Leydig tumor cells involves loss of gonadotropin receptors and decreased capacity for steroidogenesis. Freeman DA, Ascoli M Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1981 Oct;78(10):6309-13
3. Acute stimulation of aromatization in Leydig Cells by Human Chorionic Gonadotropin In-vitro. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 76:4460-3,1079
 
O4O,

That author that wrote that article about the HCG usage didnt note ANY scientific studies about how superphysiological LH levels raise test levels post cycle. In fact he seemed to contradict himself.

He points out that naturally out bodies have high LH levels post cycle as they rebound quickly, however this still does not effect test levels for some time (<10 weeks) simply because the testes are atrophied and are not ready for the high levels of LH.

Point taken

But if the testes are atrophied from a long cycle how is bombarding them with even more LH (exogenously) going to some how wake up the testes?

I know HCG has it place, but this guys PCT theory does not make sense to me.

BTW, not trying to hijack the thread Phreez, Ill move it if I need too. -ES
 
ENDO:

The point he's making, from my limited knowledge is that the LH from the body post cycle isn't enough to get the tesetes working properly so you hit them hard with HCG which gives rapidly causes the testes to comeback quicker than just waiting for them to come back naturally.

Based on some info I read on the site HCG is a must for long cycle (10 + weeks) PCT and may not be required for shorter cycles (under 8 weeks).




Endocrine_Supply said:
O4O,

That author that wrote that article about the HCG usage didnt note ANY scientific studies about how superphysiological LH levels raise test levels post cycle. In fact he seemed to contradict himself.

He points out that naturally out bodies have high LH levels post cycle as they rebound quickly, however this still does not effect test levels for some time (<10 weeks) simply because the testes are atrophied and are not ready for the high levels of LH.

Point taken

But if the testes are atrophied from a long cycle how is bombarding them with even more LH (exogenously) going to some how wake up the testes?

I know HCG has it place, but this guys PCT theory does not make sense to me.

BTW, not trying to hijack the thread Phreez, Ill move it if I need too. -ES
 
Phreezer, well thought out and thanks for the info. One of the points i would like to make that many people are not seeing though is this:

He gained 26 pounds in 17 weeks or 1.5 pounds per week

6 weeks after cycle was over he is mack down 11 pounds from peak or a loss of 1.8 pounds per week.

I would be interested to know where his weight settles in at, because at this rate he will be back down to his precycle weight in 14 weeks total.

This is in no way criticizing what you did as i think it is prob the most effective manner to stave off the loss. It just points to a truth that many guys don't want to admit, with time most if not all of your steroid induced gains will disappear, I know we don't like to think about it but it is a fact that the amount of gear you are on and the length of time have a direct bearing on how long you will maintain those gains but eventually genetics will have their way with you. I guess that is why i rarely come off, not that it is a good idea just that i have accepted my way of life for better or worse and choose not to partake in the roller coaster ride of cycling off and on.

Also it would be interesting to see his total and free testosterone levels at 4 week intervals for about the next year if he does not cycle anymore, that will tell the tale of his recovery in terms of HPTA recovery, his bodyweight is really a non factor because it will go back down to pre cycle levels or very close to it.
 

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