Need PCT Advice

[sabredude]

Can some of the PCT experts out there give me some advice?

I'm going to be finishing my first cycle in a couple of weeks, and need to know the best course of action for post cycle therapy. This first cycle was pretty mellow. 9 weeks of 3 ius of Growth Hormone ED, 300 mgs Test En every 5 days, and .25 Arimidex ED.

I have Nolvadex, Clomid, and HCG on hand -- but I don't think I need all of that. Can someone give me some good advice of what to do, how often and how much?

BTW, I'm planning to be off-cycle for about 10 weeks and then start a new 10 week cycle of Test and Deca in mid-June.

Thanks in advance bros.

 

[einstein1905]

Can some of the PCT experts out there give me some advice?

I'm going to be finishing my first cycle in a couple of weeks, and need to know the best course of action for post cycle therapy. This first cycle was pretty mellow. 9 weeks of 3 ius of Growth Hormone ED, 300 mgs Test En every 5 days, and .25 Arimidex ED.

I have Nolvadex, Clomid, and HCG on hand -- but I don't think I need all of that. Can someone give me some good advice of what to do, how often and how much?

BTW, I'm planning to be off-cycle for about 10 weeks and then start a new 10 week cycle of Test and Deca in mid-June.

Thanks in advance bros.

I would (and do) do as follows:
continue runing the adex at 0.25mg/day throught pct
Use nolva @ 20mg/day throughout pct
use clomid (starting 2 weeks after last test E shot) at 300mg day 1, 100mg days 2-11, 50mg days 12-21

No need for HCG with that cycle IMO.

 

[Deacon]

I would run hcg 500 ius eod for three weeks starting the same week as the last test shot - after two weeks of hcg begin nolva at 40 mgs for 14 days and then go 20 mgs for 14 days - I see no reason for clomid - I do not use it anymore myself and have had better results - I do like to add a good quality tribuelus product in there becuase it works well for me.


good luck bro

 

[einstein1905]

Not to start a war here, but using HCG for such a short and low-dose cycle is more harm than good. The even slight potential for LH desensitivity isn't worth it. As for pct....it's all about LH, and clomid at the doses above boost your LH levels faster than nolva pcts. The studies that show nolva in favor of clomid in boosting test levels are looong durations and are often taken out of context without factoring that in. You want your test levels back as fast as possible to maintain/maximize your gains.

 

[Biggriz]

Bumping Einstein1905...you're the MAN! (much knowledge)

 

[sabredude]

Thanks for the advice. I'm gonna gop with Einstein's recommendation unless someone can give me a good reason not to.

 

[tatt2d]

Not to start a war here, but using HCG for such a short and low-dose cycle is more harm than good. The even slight potential for LH desensitivity isn't worth it. As for pct....it's all about LH, and clomid at the doses above boost your LH levels faster than nolva pcts. The studies that show nolva in favor of clomid in boosting test levels are looong durations and are often taken out of context without factoring that in. You want your test levels back as fast as possible to maintain/maximize your gains.

Would someone who has used HCG throughout cycle benefit adequately from pct with nolva?

 

[Deacon]

I agree no war starting here but I know many bros who are long time users in their 40's who use that exact combo of hcg and nolva and prefer it over clomid- I do myself

I say to each his own - if I want to break out from acne like I do from clomid I will take it again otherwise no way -

I would say that you are wiser to follow the approach of running three weeks of hcg mid cycle to keep the fellas up and not allow them to shrink to begin with - this approach will help with pct greatly.

 

[einstein1905]

It's just that with a 9 week cycle, testicular atrophy shouldn't be a huge issue. If you really want to incorporate it, I'd wait until a saw some slight sign of shrinkage, if you do at all, then do maybe 500IU on back to back days.

Using HCG excessively/unnecessarily throughout a cycle may be looked at as beneficial, but a weekend of a few low dose HCG shots can play catch up in a hurry and prevent the LH desensitivity that repeated HCG use can cause.

Clomid has more sides in some than others. It doesn't effect me much at all. Acne prevention should be something that you've already taken care of when beginning AAS. Nolva has the potential to lower IGF-1 levels, whereas clomid does not.

I will come back to my take home point....
At the durations and dosages typically used, clomid will raise LH levels (and therefore endogenous test) faster than nolva. You want your test production back as fast as possible.

Many people use nolva only and say that it works great for them....I don't doubt it. However. clomid works better. When I work as hard as I do in the gym and on my diet, I want to make the most of everything I do. Maintaining gains post cycle is most people's weakness....it doesn't have to be yours too.

 

[BigMike86]

Einstein,

Not to discredit you, you sound quite knowledgeable, but I thought i'd add my two cents. Nolva, IMO, is superior to clomid because clomid has been shown, in PROVEN, scientific studies, to DECREASE Pituatary sensitivity to LH, whereas Nolva has the opposite effect. This is very important information because when the pituitary is MORE sensitive to LH, the faster the HPTA will have a chance to come back. This is due to the fact that both clomid and nolva are SERMS, both essentially having the same actions in the body, except for that major point above. Also, Nolva is as effective at 40mg as clomid is at 150mg, hence more bang for your buck(or just that nolva is simply stronger). As for HCG......shit man, I have yet to hear a definitive answer regarding its usage. but I personally feel that it should be used after almost all cycles simply because the testes are shut down(it takes very little exogenous testosterone to make them shut down)and the use of HCG is a very effective way to "shock" the testes into working again and producing testosterone. Granted, they will be doing this because they are influenced by an outside source of LH(HCG), but during this time and for 3 weeks afterward, you can use nolva to block estrogen in your body and help get your HPTA restarted. Also, as someone previously said, I myself also like to throw in a quality Tribulus product to speed up the process. Later.

 

[einstein1905]

Einstein,

Not to discredit you, you sound quite knowledgeable, but I thought i'd add my two cents. Nolva, IMO, is superior to clomid because clomid has been shown, in PROVEN, scientific studies, to DECREASE Pituatary sensitivity to LH, whereas Nolva has the opposite effect. This is very important information because when the pituitary is MORE sensitive to LH, the faster the HPTA will have a chance to come back. This is due to the fact that both clomid and nolva are SERMS, both essentially having the same actions in the body, except for that major point above. Also, Nolva is as effective at 40mg as clomid is at 150mg, hence more bang for your buck(or just that nolva is simply stronger). As for HCG......shit man, I have yet to hear a definitive answer regarding its usage. but I personally feel that it should be used after almost all cycles simply because the testes are shut down(it takes very little exogenous testosterone to make them shut down)and the use of HCG is a very effective way to "shock" the testes into working again and producing testosterone. Granted, they will be doing this because they are influenced by an outside source of LH(HCG), but during this time and for 3 weeks afterward, you can use nolva to block estrogen in your body and help get your HPTA restarted. Also, as someone previously said, I myself also like to throw in a quality Tribulus product to speed up the process. Later.

http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=88759

 

[Carlito]

Not to start a war here, but using HCG for such a short and low-dose cycle is more harm than good. The even slight potential for LH desensitivity isn't worth it. As for pct....it's all about LH, and clomid at the doses above boost your LH levels faster than nolva pcts. The studies that show nolva in favor of clomid in boosting test levels are looong durations and are often taken out of context without factoring that in. You want your test levels back as fast as possible to maintain/maximize your gains.

I agree with you on this one bro, right on the money

 

[einstein1905]

I just want to point out to you, and you're not alone, that the study to which you refer, which was recently used as a reference in an article trying to show nolva being better than clomid for pct, is old an one of a kind. No other study substantiates those findings. Also, the paper specifically states "statistically significant......... which almost always means that there is no substantial difference, but by running stats on the numbers, we can still get this published in some low rent journal"
The gentlemen that wrote the article that claimed nolva's superiority to clomid for pct used only studies that supported his claim, while ignoring the the far larger number of studies which contradicted him. He also took the results out of context and failed to mention the durations of the studies. I posted a link above that is a similar discussion, which itself has a link to a forum where several studies are listed and the relevant information is discussed. If you're serious about learning for yourself which is better, I suggest you read this. Don't take everything you hear to be gospel....it doesn't hurt to do a little digging on your own. Nolva DOES work for pct, it just doesn't work as efficiently. Clomid does have sides for some that may not be worth it to them...I grant you that.

When it comes down to geting your test levels back fastes post cycle, clomid + nolva + an AI such as Adex is the best choice based on what's currently known.

Einstein,

Not to discredit you, you sound quite knowledgeable, but I thought i'd add my two cents. Nolva, IMO, is superior to clomid because clomid has been shown, in PROVEN, scientific studies, to DECREASE Pituatary sensitivity to LH, whereas Nolva has the opposite effect. This is very important information because when the pituitary is MORE sensitive to LH, the faster the HPTA will have a chance to come back. This is due to the fact that both clomid and nolva are SERMS, both essentially having the same actions in the body, except for that major point above. Also, Nolva is as effective at 40mg as clomid is at 150mg, hence more bang for your buck(or just that nolva is simply stronger). As for HCG......shit man, I have yet to hear a definitive answer regarding its usage. but I personally feel that it should be used after almost all cycles simply because the testes are shut down(it takes very little exogenous testosterone to make them shut down)and the use of HCG is a very effective way to "shock" the testes into working again and producing testosterone. Granted, they will be doing this because they are influenced by an outside source of LH(HCG), but during this time and for 3 weeks afterward, you can use nolva to block estrogen in your body and help get your HPTA restarted. Also, as someone previously said, I myself also like to throw in a quality Tribulus product to speed up the process. Later.

 

[Deacon]

I checked with a couple of bros who are very knowledgable in pct with hcg and they each stated that the reason for using 500 ius is because at that level it does not cause desensitizing of the LH levels - also each one stated that nolva and clomid are really interchangable just depends on the sides suffered by the user. I also foloow their advice and finish cycles with proviron to help set up hcg - what is your opinion on that?

no arguing just wanted to point that out

 

[einstein1905]

I checked with a couple of bros who are very knowledgable in pct with hcg and they each stated that the reason for using 500 ius is because at that level it does not cause desensitizing of the LH levels - also each one stated that nolva and clomid are really interchangable just depends on the sides suffered by the user.

no arguing just wanted to point that out

I hear you, but it's good to discuss it. Nolva and clomid are interchangeable if you just want a SERM, in general, but they don't have the same actions in the same tissues nor do they have the same effects on LH levels. It's very common to hear people say that they are the same thing, but they're not. Their primary action is the same, hence both being classified as SERMS, beyond that is where the differences are important for our purposes.
HCG at 500IU doesn't cause desensitivity based on what and for how long at that dose? The reason HCG "shocks" the testes out of raisenhood is because the LH mimicing ability of even low doses of HCG are far more potent than physiological levels of LH. I'm not saying that a weekend where you use HCG at 500IU/day for 2-3 days is going to do anything significant, but I also won't say that it won't. However, 500IU 2X every other weekend over the course of a longer cycle can very well lead to desensitivity. To "shock" the testes with a boost of HCG sometime before pct makes sense, but to continually expose them to high levels of HCG just to prevent shrinkage is more harm than good IMO. Especially when you can shock them back to size in a weekend or so.

 

[Deacon]

I use it for three weeks - starting the week of the last test injection - 500 ius eod - since I am usually using an ester that takes that long to clear I start nolva after 14 days so I over lap hcg and nolva for one week -

sound like it is good or bad to you?

also about mid cycle use - how about 1500 or 3000 once a week for three weeks as suggested elsewhere?

 

[einstein1905]

I use it for three weeks - starting the week of the last test injection - 500 ius eod - since I am usually using an ester that takes that long to clear I start nolva after 14 days so I over lap hcg and nolva for one week -

sound like it is good or bad to you?

also about mid cycle use - how about 1500 or 3000 once a week for three weeks as suggested elsewhere?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't need nearly that much (or that long) to rebound. A 16 week cycle with 500IU back to back days week ten and the same week 17 and the boys are as if I had never neglected them. I may not have even needed the week ten HCG, but I can't say now. Have you tried using just a 500IU back to back day boost after a long cycle? I'm just curious. If that's what it takes for you to rebound, then it is what it is. I'm just interested to hear from you and others if you have tried less.

I've never used the longer HCG durations or higher doses. I'm not saying you've desensitized yourself, but hearing from others on the boards is the only real input I have on peoples' boys when using HCG. My own experience and what I hear is it.

 

[Deacon]

the last time I went three weeks at 500 eod - I bounced back better than ever using that


I am contemplating using three high dose shots in the middle of my next cycle - 1500 to 3000 per shot once a week for three weeks - I have heard this really keeps them up and helps pct at the end

 

[sabredude]

I would (and do) do as follows:
continue runing the adex at 0.25mg/day throught pct
Use nolva @ 20mg/day throughout pct
use clomid (starting 2 weeks after last test E shot) at 300mg day 1, 100mg days 2-11, 50mg days 12-21

No need for HCG with that cycle IMO.

For Einstein (or anyone else who has input)...

I did my last injection today. I'm going to continue to .50 Adex EOD, and start the clomid two weeks from today at the does you recommended.

Should the Nolva start immediately -- like tomorrow??

 

[einstein1905]

For Einstein (or anyone else who has input)...

I did my last injection today. I'm going to continue to .50 Adex EOD, and start the clomid two weeks from today at the does you recommended.

Should the Nolva start immediately -- like tomorrow??

If you aren't currently running nolva, I'd start it now at 10mg/day and then bump it to 20mg/day once you start clomid. You could also start it now at 20mg/day too, as this may expedite things ever so slightly.
Make sure to keep eating......take in as many (or more) calories as you were while on.