PCT question

cathex

New Member
I hear so many people talking about how good and necessary clomid is for pct (and I have done research and know why it is) but I also here so many saying how it can make you feel so sad and depressed as well as agressive and all kinds of things. I can't comment at this mo cos I've never taken it as yet. Well my question is, if I've just finished say a ten wk cycle of test and deca and I use clomid for my pct and start to feel that it doesn't agree with me either, what should I do? Put up with it until I complete pct, or can I use something else in it's place. I've read that nolva can be used but works in a different way, is it a worthy substitiue and at what dose and for how long would I have to take it as compared with clomid. Or, is there anything else I could use.
 
is it a worthy substitiue

yes.

at what dose and for how long

some say 40mg/ED, some say 80mg/ED. for 3 weeks.

have a nice day
 
joe shmoe said:
is it a worthy substitiue

yes.

at what dose and for how long

some say 40mg/ED, some say 80mg/ED. for 3 weeks.

have a nice day

Agreed...
 
Here's the deal....clomid has sides.........potentially ocular side effects.

The other sides people attribute to clomid are not direct...they are due to the recent drop in the levels of AAS and then acute rise in gonadotropins and, subsequently, test. Clomid is very potent and efficient at increasing gonadotropin levels (LH being relevant here). The reaon one doesn't get the same sides (emotional, acne, etc) is because the rise in gonadotropins (and test) with inferior pcts is much slower. it's the sharp drop and then rise in hormone levels that cause the "clomid" sides, not clomid itself....this is indicative of clomid "working", and working efficiently.
 
joe shmoe said:
is it a worthy substitiue

yes.

at what dose and for how long

some say 40mg/ED, some say 80mg/ED. for 3 weeks.

have a nice day
Nolva is not a sub for clomid and those doses are to high, try 10mg ED throughout cycle and increase to 20mg During PCT. The dosages that are being recommended are for treatment of gyno not prevention..
 
Nolva is not a sub for clomid and those doses are to high, try 10mg ED throughout cycle and increase to 20mg During PCT. The dosages that are being recommended are for treatment of gyno not prevention..

well you'll have a hard time convincing more than just a few people here who have used nolva succesfully to recover. and yes, at those doses.

have a nice day
 
For those that sing the praises of nolva, keep in mind that you'll recover without pct too. the goal isn't to merely recover HPTA, that's easy, it's to recover HPTA function as quickly as possible, and in doing so, you will get sides, due to the rapid fluxes in hormone levels.
 
einstein...so are you saying that nolva will not help in recovery? i realize that there will be sides with alot of things. thats the nature of the beast. but there have been several accounts of where nolva has been used, for the same 3 weeks as clomid is usually recommended, and people recover fine. some just prefer the nolvadex to clomid because they cant deal with the emotional side efeects of clomid.

have a nice day
 
This post is very interesting. I also hate the emotional sides I get from Clomid also the wierd blurry vision and mild hallucianations. isnt nolva also slightly liver toxic?
BTW- Einstein, you truly are a genius, I have read many of your posts and would like to thank you for the info you provide.
 
joe shmoe said:
einstein...so are you saying that nolva will not help in recovery? i realize that there will be sides with alot of things. thats the nature of the beast. but there have been several accounts of where nolva has been used, for the same 3 weeks as clomid is usually recommended, and people recover fine. some just prefer the nolvadex to clomid because they cant deal with the emotional side efeects of clomid.

have a nice day

No, nolva will help with recovery.....I don't mean to say it won't. However, "recover just fine" is often how people refer to their pct, whatever it may have included. There isn't any question that over the short term (`30 days) clomid is far superior at increasing LH and test, that's been well-established and rehashed in more threads on more boards than almost anything. In fact, on a short term basis (where the period is similar to PCT), clomid is far superior. People can go ahead and harken back to the studies Llewelyn cites, but they are at 3-6months in duration, and he takes the final numbers out of context and neglects the acute effects, the effects relevant to us.

Nolva is much better than no PCT, but it isn't comparable to clomid pct.

That all being said, clomid alone isn't comparable to using clomid WITH nolva and a low dose AI.

The ability to recover endogenous test production ASAP shortens the length of time one is in an androgen-deprived state and greatly increases the potential to keep gains.

People that have swithced over have attested to the difference in gains kept. I've got feedback from people keeping 25/27lbs, 26/30lbs, 23/27lbs, and other similar results, as opposed to the results we've grown to expect, like 15/25lbs kept. When it comes to retaining 15-30% more of your gains, it's pretty significant IMO. I'm not saying those numbers will be yours, but the fact is that using 3 compounds that complement each other during pct will greatly enhance the effects.

the faster you regain HPTA function, the more gains kept.


The sides from clomid are a result of rapid hormone fluxes......acne, emotional swings....all common during puberty, menstruation, AAS cycles with fluctuating plasma levels, menopause, etc
 
Hey thanks for that, it has helped (I think). This subject always seems to spark a hot debate but you'd be surprised at how many people I know in the gym where I train, still think you use HCG for pct. It is I who have been introducing the idea of clomid and/or nolva to them and that is cos I learnt a lot of that info from this site (amongst others), so 'go forth and spread the word' is what I'm doing, but in a way that is credible and corroborative. To some extent, that's what inspird this post in the first place, having spoken to people who have had varying sides from clomid use and others who don't have a fucking clue about anything.

As for not using anyhthing for pct, I've done that before years ago when Knowlwedge was scarce and a cycle was a pick-and-mix out of some dodgy dealers flagging stock, but hey, praise the internet, now info abounds. Believe me it's not pleasant watching most of your gains going down the crapper and feeling like shit (weak, aching joints, low/no libido etc). So I guess if it's between a choice of feeling like the above and loosing most of my gains, or putting up with a few sides and keeping a good percentage of them, I think I'll opt for the latter this time and hopefully get it right.

Thanks again.
 
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einstein1905 said:
No, nolva will help with recovery.....I don't mean to say it won't. However, "recover just fine" is often how people refer to their pct, whatever it may have included. There isn't any question that over the short term (`30 days) clomid is far superior at increasing LH and test, that's been well-established and rehashed in more threads on more boards than almost anything. In fact, on a short term basis (where the period is similar to PCT), clomid is far superior. People can go ahead and harken back to the studies Llewelyn cites, but they are at 3-6months in duration, and he takes the final numbers out of context and neglects the acute effects, the effects relevant to us.

Nolva is much better than no PCT, but it isn't comparable to clomid pct.

That all being said, clomid alone isn't comparable to using clomid WITH nolva and a low dose AI.

The ability to recover endogenous test production ASAP shortens the length of time one is in an androgen-deprived state and greatly increases the potential to keep gains.

People that have swithced over have attested to the difference in gains kept. I've got feedback from people keeping 25/27lbs, 26/30lbs, 23/27lbs, and other similar results, as opposed to the results we've grown to expect, like 15/25lbs kept. When it comes to retaining 15-30% more of your gains, it's pretty significant IMO. I'm not saying those numbers will be yours, but the fact is that using 3 compounds that complement each other during pct will greatly enhance the effects.

the faster you regain HPTA function, the more gains kept.


The sides from clomid are a result of rapid hormone fluxes......acne, emotional swings....all common during puberty, menstruation, AAS cycles with fluctuating plasma levels, menopause, etc


Just doing some PCT research and ran across this. So if I understood you right, use HCG,clomid and nolva post cycle? In your opinion,how would be the best way to do that, i.e, dosages...clomid/nolva and for how long?

einstein1905 said:
That all being said, clomid alone isn't comparable to using clomid WITH nolva and a low dose AI.

What is AI?
 
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Big_Swole said:
Just doing some PCT research and ran across this. So if I understood you right, use HCG,clomid and nolva post cycle? In your opinion,how would be the best way to do that, i.e, dosages...clomid/nolva and for how long?

einstein1905 said:
That all being said, clomid alone isn't comparable to using clomid WITH nolva and a low dose AI.

What is AI?


HCG is PRE pct only....not during pct. An AI is an aromatas einhibitor, like arimidex or femara
 
einstein1905 said:
HCG is PRE pct only....not during pct. An AI is an aromatas einhibitor, like arimidex or femara

So how would you recommend using the clomid, nolva and arimidex, i.e, dosages? Also, aren't nolva and adex used for the same thing? I know everyone says adex works better, just wondering why you would use both at the same time? Wouldn't using both of them post cycle lower estrogen to much and make it harder to recover properly?
 
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Einstein,yes,please,give us your opinion on adding arimidex to our PCT.This has been tossed around with opinion after opinion.Many have said that adding ARI post cycle would reduce our estrogen level way too low.

I know there are many here that are extremely interested in what you have to say.
Thanks again for all your help...
 
Uconn Mike said:
Einstein,yes,please,give us your opinion on adding arimidex to our PCT.This has been tossed around with opinion after opinion.Many have said that adding ARI post cycle would reduce our estrogen level way too low.

I know there are many here that are extremely interested in what you have to say.
Thanks again for all your help...


Using JUST an AI during pct (w/o nolva) would reduce estrogen too low, with the detriment being mainly with HDL being too low. However, I use nolva and an AI during pct, so the nolva acts as an estrogen in most tissues (with the bone and liver being most relevant here), so it actually increases HDL.

Think about this....
during pct, what little test you are producung is just as susceptible to aromatization as when you have high levels of test, so you don't want the normal rate of aromatization to be taking place, because you don't have normal levels of test. Also, AI's reduce SHBG.....again, we have very low levels of test during pct, and this test is just as suceptible to being bound by SHBG as when we have high test levels. Free test is what matters, not total test, so reducing SHBG increases the % of bioavailable test that is present. An AI during pct maximizes the effectiveness of what little test we are producing during the time when free test is most needed.

I only use 0.25mg/day of adex during pct.....20mg/day of nolva and clomid is at 100mg/day.....the durations depend on the cycle length
 
einstein1905 said:
Using JUST an AI during pct (w/o nolva) would reduce estrogen too low, with the detriment being mainly with HDL being too low. However, I use nolva and an AI during pct, so the nolva acts as an estrogen in most tissues (with the bone and liver being most relevant here), so it actually increases HDL.

Think about this....
during pct, what little test you are producung is just as susceptible to aromatization as when you have high levels of test, so you don't want the normal rate of aromatization to be taking place, because you don't have normal levels of test. Also, AI's reduce SHBG.....again, we have very low levels of test during pct, and this test is just as suceptible to being bound by SHBG as when we have high test levels. Free test is what matters, not total test, so reducing SHBG increases the % of bioavailable test that is present. An AI during pct maximizes the effectiveness of what little test we are producing during the time when free test is most needed.

I only use 0.25mg/day of adex during pct.....20mg/day of nolva and clomid is at 100mg/day.....the durations depend on the cycle length


Yes, thanx Einstein, that has summed up this thread nicely.
 
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