PCT's PCT's PCT's

[ilovethedark]

I read from this site about some PCT's http://thinksteroids.com/articles/inhibition-and-recovery-of-natural-testosterone-production/. I am about to come off cycle, and started taking 40mg Nolvadex/day, 20mg am & 20mg pm. Iwas going to do this for 3 weeks and then 30mg/day for 3 weeks. Is this advisable? Clomid seems to be better, but is this true, and is there anything else I should be taking for my nutz?

 

[Animalhouse]

Dark I read that article yesterday mate-it has good information-what it means is high estrogen and high testosterone or other steroids cause inhibition so if you are taking gear even if you take anti e you still have inhibition from the hormones you are taking-you therefore cannot avoid inhibition on a cycle. The aim mate is to limit the degree of disturbance to your bodys equilibrium. Keep estrogen under control as it said this down regulates the pituitarys response to LHRH so if you get bloat alot you should look take nolvas during the cycle and even look into femera and anastrozole(arimidex) but do not have estrogen too low from excessive anti aromatose doses as this causes down regulation of Hpta as does high estrogen. Limiting the disturbance on cycle you need to do two things 1} keep your nuts working, I previously did this mid cycle and the last week 3 shots of 1500iu HCG but after speaking to a National level competitor and following his advice have been using 250iu 2 times a week every week to prevent the testicles atrophying in the first place. Low dose is best as I have learnt higher doses in a single shot can down regulate the testicles response to LH- so if theres still atrophy on 250iu twice a week increase it to 3 times-if still go upto 500iu twice a week and that should be more than enough. OK that takes care of the first point. The second is to get the Hpta going again to release LHRH and in turn LH and FSH after the cycle. Here you need to use an anti e to block the negative feedback of estrogen in the Hpta simply what happens is the Hpta does not sense any estrogen as nolva or clomid block the estrogen from binding.... the Hpta sensing low estrogen assumes low testosterone too so ups LHRH and in turn LH which in turn gets the testicles producing testosterone naturally again. Doing things this way prevention of testicle shutdown is much better than trying to cure it later as was done in the past.

Now Ive explained why-what you do is 1}use 250iu HCG twice a week every week of your cycle upto 2 weeks before the steroids will have cleared enough to start clomid. I take this as 100mg of steroid in the system worked out from the half lives.

2} use clomid at a loaded dose 300-400mg then 50mg a day. You can also use 20mg a day of nolva as well- as many people do due to alot of discussion which is better if any so some opt to use both to cover all bases. I run clomid 6 weeks personally and blood tests show i have recovered well each time. I hope this helps mate

 

[Neodavid]

6 weeks of clomid?

You got good info, so can you explain why 6 instead of the 3 I've heard?

Thanks for the info man, I was wondering about 1500 hcg once a week during cycle, but now am convinced 500 2x is the way to go. I'm on week 7, got injured, so am hoping to get my hcg in and maybe lengthen my cycle a little so it won't all be a waste.

Dark I read that article yesterday mate-it has good information-what it means is high estrogen and high testosterone or other steroids cause inhibition so if you are taking gear even if you take anti e you still have inhibition from the hormones you are taking-you therefore cannot avoid inhibition on a cycle. The aim mate is to limit the degree of disturbance to your bodys equilibrium. Keep estrogen under control as it said this down regulates the pituitarys response to LHRH so if you get bloat alot you should look take nolvas during the cycle and even look into femera and anastrozole(arimidex). Limiting the disturbance on cycle you need to do two things 1} keep your nuts working, I previously did this mid cycle and the last week 3 shots of 1500iu but after speaking to a National level competitor and following his advice have been using 250iu 2 times a week every week to prevent the testicles atrophying in the first place. Low dose is best as I have learnt higher doses in a single shot can down regulate the testicles response to LH- so if theres still atrophy on 250iu twice a week increase it to 3 times-if still go upto 500iu twice a week and that should be more than enough. OK that takes care of the first point. The second is to get the Hpta going again to release LHRH and in turn LH and FSH after the cycle. Here you need to use an anti e to block the negative feedback of estrogen in the Hpta simply what happens is the Hpta does not sense any estrogen as nolva or clomid block the estrogen from binding.... the Hpta sensing low estrogen assumes low testosterone too so ups LHRH and in turn LH which in turn gets the testicles producing testosterone naturally again. Doing things this way prevention of testicle shutdown is much better than trying to cure it later as was done in the past.

Now Ive explained why-what you do is 1}use 250iu twice a week every week of your cycle upto 2 weeks before the steroids will have cleared enough to start clomid. I take this as 100mg of steroid in the system worked out from the half lives.

2} use clomid at a loaded dose 300-400mg then 50mg a day. You can also use 20mg a day of nolva as well- as many people do due to alot of discussion which is better if any so some opt to use both to cover all bases. I run clomid 6 weeks personally and blood tests show i have recovered well each time. I hope this helps mate

 

[Animalhouse]

Thanks Neo- 6 weeks instead of 3 as from talking with fellow competitors this is the most used regime-for those who come off- and most the guys who do come off get blood tests done-myself included so are speaking from black and white figures. Some guys use it for much longer-its often used many months for infertility so its safe-and i err on the side of caution anyhow. Im sorry to hear about your injury mate-hope you heel well and fast make sure to be taking glucosamine and chondroitin with Msm to help heal

 

[einstein1905]

Rather than re-explain everything, I'll just provide a link. It's very hard to argue with the following pct protocol, as it allows for the most efficient method of restoring HPTA function and therefore endogenous test prodoction:

http://forums.anabolicreview.com/showthread.php?t=94626

I also agree that HCG has its place in PCT for longer cycles, but preventing atrophy isn't the primary necessity. Regaining testicle size after a longer cycle is what's important IMO, so HCG towards the end of a cycle to regain size is what's important, preventing atrophy is merely aesthetic.

 

[esco]

after about(depending on what you were taking) but i believe its like 10 days after you last shot of cyp or enan or 14 days after sus ... take 1000ius of hcq for about 10days and then about 3 days after your lat hcg shot take 40mg of nolvadex/ed for about 4 weeks. by the way do a thread search for nolvadex vs. clomid here at meso .... there is a great article that clearly states that nolvadex is a better choice. good luck

 

[einstein1905]

after about(depending on what you were taking) but i believe its like 10 days after you last shot of cyp or enan or 14 days after sus ... take 1000ius of hcq for about 10days and then about 3 days after your lat hcg shot take 40mg of nolvadex/ed for about 4 weeks. by the way do a thread search for nolvadex vs. clomid here at meso .... there is a great article that clearly states that nolvadex is a better choice. good luck

After you turn up the BS LLewellyn article claiming nolva to be superior, go to the link I provided so you can see the truth. If you want to run nolva for 3 months or so, then it becomes the better choice...and even then it's arguable. Clomid is much more efficient, and there is no real debate on that issue. The only drawback is potential of more sides with clomid, although not serious or common.

 

[Neodavid]

Well, then another 3 weeks of clomid is going on order!

I'm really curious about losses with and without PCT now, because Eleven (?) said he lost 40% of his gains, and used pct. Now me, I did NO pct on my first cycle, and lost 50%... The math on that isn't hard to figure, since my pct costs last time were zero, this time about $150.

This was my first cycle though, and I think he's done many, so maybe you lose more as you get closer to your natural max for holding muscle.

Thanks Neo- 6 weeks instead of 3 as from talking with fellow competitors this is the most used regime-for those who come off- and most the guys who do come off get blood tests done-myself included so are speaking from black and white figures. Some guys use it for much longer-its often used many months for infertility so its safe-and i err on the side of caution anyhow. Im sorry to hear about your injury mate-hope you heel well and fast make sure to be taking glucosamine and chondroitin with Msm to help heal

 

[Neodavid]

Thanks for the link Einstein, as usual you are the man for documentation.

Going to go read up, but some guys here say they just hate clomid, haven't found out why yet... But mine is on order, and I'll use it for PCT to see what happens.

On the aesthetics, err... okay, But if you keep your boys up to size, wouldn't that make pct faster? Psychologically it's big thing for me, so I'll do it, since it's already on order.

Plus, if the boys are working, they are putting out test, making your weekly dose that much higher (more sides, yeah, that's why I've got arimidex).

But you gave us a thread, so I should go read it before asking you this...

Thanks man

Rather than re-explain everything, I'll just provide a link. It's very hard to argue with the following pct protocol, as it allows for the most efficient method of restoring HPTA function and therefore endogenous test prodoction:

http://forums.anabolicreview.com/showthread.php?t=94626

I also agree that HCG has its place in PCT for longer cycles, but preventing atrophy isn't the primary necessity. Regaining testicle size after a longer cycle is what's important IMO, so HCG towards the end of a cycle to regain size is what's important, preventing atrophy is merely aesthetic.

 

[einstein1905]

Thanks for the link Einstein, as usual you are the man for documentation.

Going to go read up, but some guys here say they just hate clomid, haven't found out why yet... But mine is on order, and I'll use it for PCT to see what happens.

On the aesthetics, err... okay, But if you keep your boys up to size, wouldn't that make pct faster? Psychologically it's big thing for me, so I'll do it, since it's already on order.

Plus, if the boys are working, they are putting out test, making your weekly dose that much higher (more sides, yeah, that's why I've got arimidex).

But you gave us a thread, so I should go read it before asking you this...

Thanks man

In actuality, the test produced in response to the small doses of HCG relative to what you're injecting is negligible. Frequent HCG administration can also lead to LH desensitization. Simply boosting your testes via HCG 2-3 weeks prior to pct is more than sufficient, and I see no benefit to maintaining size throughout the cycle. With proper use of anti e's throughout your cycle, followed by proper pct (as per Pheedno), there is no reason you won't keep at least 90% of your gains, but this will obviously depend on where you're at in your development.

 

[Neodavid]

So live with small nuts now, or take a chance of living with em permanently later... I'm convinced! (grin)

Something in the newbie psychology of this says, "If you let them get small, they might stay that way".

But I did 14 weeks before, with no pct they came back in a month, maybe 6 weeks (hard to tell, my 'nut scale' is still in the shop).

Thanks E.

In actuality, the test produced in response to the small doses of HCG relative to what you're injecting is negligible. Frequent HCG administration can also lead to LH desensitization. Simply boosting your testes via HCG 2-3 weeks prior to pct is more than sufficient, and I see no benefit to maintaining size throughout the cycle. With proper use of anti e's throughout your cycle, followed by proper pct (as per Pheedno), there is no reason you won't keep at least 90% of your gains, but this will obviously depend on where you're at in your development.

 

[Dart]

In actuality, the test produced in response to the small doses of HCG relative to what you're injecting is negligible. Frequent HCG administration can also lead to LH desensitization. Simply boosting your testes via HCG 2-3 weeks prior to pct is more than sufficient, and I see no benefit to maintaining size throughout the cycle. With proper use of anti e's throughout your cycle, followed by proper pct (as per Pheedno), there is no reason you won't keep at least 90% of your gains, but this will obviously depend on where you're at in your development.

Good advice here!
.

 

[akafox24]

Hcg

How much HCG should I use and for how long ???????????????

 

[Neodavid]

go up in the thread, Einstein gave a link that specifies amounts.

How much HCG should I use and for how long ???????????????

 

[esco]

clomid wasn't good for me because it causes me to breakout.

 

[Neodavid]

Oh, yeah, that'd be a bummer... on the face? I could deal with the back or something. Thanks man...

clomid wasn't good for me because it causes me to breakout.