Question abt TMG without DIM

[maxzax]

Hey Guys,

I have been reading good things about TMG on this board.

Would taking TMG alone lower total estrogens without adding it to DIM. The reason Im asking is because Im considering using arimidex but if arimidex doesn't lower my Total E's enuff, would TMG alone without DIM be appropriate?

Thanks

 

[benrock]

whats tmg ?

 

[pmgamer18]

Hey Guys,

I have been reading good things about TMG on this board.

Would taking TMG alone lower total estrogens without adding it to DIM. The reason Im asking is because Im considering using arimidex but if arimidex doesn't lower my Total E's enuff, would TMG alone without DIM be appropriate?

Thanks

I don't know but that is a dam good question. Here is what TMG is.
http://www.myvitanet.com/tmgtr75120ca.html
Phil

 

[Annularnos]

Hey Guys,

I have been reading good things about TMG on this board.

Would taking TMG alone lower total estrogens without adding it to DIM. The reason Im asking is because Im considering using arimidex but if arimidex doesn't lower my Total E's enuff, would TMG alone without DIM be appropriate?

Thanks

I didn't realize TMG had any affect at all on estrogen, total or otherwise.

 

[pmgamer18]

Here is a cut & paste of what Dr. John said about taking DIM.
>
> We should remember that DIM also increases the level of the
dangerous 4-OHE as well as improving 2-OHE/16-alpha-OHE. Thus it
should not be taken without DMG, or preferably TMG, to wash the 4-OHE
downstream in its metabolic pathway. Folic acid helps as well.
> __________________
> www.AllThingsMale.com
Phil

 

[maxzax]

I didn't realize TMG had any affect at all on estrogen, total or otherwise.

Swale, said he treats his patients with DIM & TMG after taking their E2 down with Arimidex and when he doesn't want to lower E2 anymore, he adds DIM & TMG.

From my understanding DIM would increase total estrogens, so based on Swale's approach does that mean TMG would work to alleviate total estrogens?

If anyone knows please let me know.

Thanks!

 

[maxzax]

Here is a cut & paste of what Dr. John said about taking DIM.
>
> We should remember that DIM also increases the level of the
dangerous 4-OHE as well as improving 2-OHE/16-alpha-OHE. Thus it
should not be taken without DMG, or preferably TMG, to wash the 4-OHE
downstream in its metabolic pathway. Folic acid helps as well.
> __________________
> www.AllThingsMale.com
Phil

Wish I could understand the above

 

[Annularnos]

Yeah, I don't really understand the above either....I think those are estrogen metabolites. The question here is.....does TMG, and only TMG, affect estrogen, total or E2? I thought that the only purpose of adding TMG to a DIM supplementation protocol was to help with lowering homocysteine levels that may become elevated by supplementing with DIM alone. That said, I think we all know that DIM helps metabolize estrogen, but does DIM affect only E2 or does it help lower total estrogens as well?

 

[pmgamer18]

Yeah, I don't really understand the above either. The question here is.....does TMG, and only TMG, affect estrogen, total or E2? I thought that the only purpose of adding TMG to a DIM supplementation protocol was to help with lowering homocysteine levels that may become elevated by supplementing with DIM alone. That said, I think we all know that DIM helps metabolize estrogen, but does DIM affect only E2 or does it help lower total estrogens as well?

My be I can put some light on this at least I will try. When I got my E2 down the first time I used Arimidex one half of a one mg. pill everyday. After 4 weeks my E2 came down form the 90's to mid 20's. I felt like a new man long story. But my Total E was very high upper 400's. Arimidex did not bring my Total E down. And trying to keep my E2 down on Arimidex was very hard I kept going to low. Going to low was just as bad for me as being to high. So I posted at the H2 group as to what if any there was I could take to keep E2 down with out going to low. David Z got back to me and told me about Indolplex/DIM and morning wood. He told me to try taking Indolplex/DIM one half a tablet a day. He told me I should get my morning wood back in about one week. I told him I did not think I would get any wood I have not had any in over 35 yrs. Well I was on Indolplex/DIM for one week and my morning wood came back and it was so hard if was waking me up. He told me if the wood stops that means my E2 went to low and when this happens to stop taking the Indolplex/DIM until the wood comes back then to go back on it but cut the dose in half. So this is what works for me to keep from gong to low.
Yet my blood tests still showed my Total E to high, my DHT was very high and being on Indolplex/DIM made my DHT come down from 3 times over the high end of the range to mid range. My Total E started comming down when I added TMG I came down from the 400 to just below the top of the range being <200. I was only on it a week and it came down this much. So I would bet it will be much lower on my next test the end of this month.
Phil

 

[Annularnos]

My be I can put some light on this at least I will try. When I got my E2 down the first time I used Arimidex one half of a one mg. pill everyday. After 4 weeks my E2 came down form the 90's to mid 20's. I felt like a new man long story. But my Total E was very high upper 400's. Arimidex did not bring my Total E down. And trying to keep my E2 down on Arimidex was very hard I kept going to low. Going to low was just as bad for me as being to high. So I posted at the H2 group as to what if any there was I could take to keep E2 down with out going to low. David Z got back to me and told me about Indolplex/DIM and morning wood. He told me to try taking Indolplex/DIM one half a tablet a day. He told me I should get my morning wood back in about one week. I told him I did not think I would get any wood I have not had any in over 35 yrs. Well I was on Indolplex/DIM for one week and my morning wood came back and it was so hard if was waking me up. He told me if the wood stops that means my E2 went to low and when this happens to stop taking the Indolplex/DIM until the wood comes back then to go back on it but cut the dose in half. So this is what works for me to keep from gong to low.
Yet my blood tests still showed my Total E to high, my DHT was very high and being on Indolplex/DIM made my DHT come down from 3 times over the high end of the range to mid range. My Total E started comming down when I added TMG I came down from the 400 to just below the top of the range being <200. I was only on it a week and it came down this much. So I would bet it will be much lower on my next test the end of this month.
Phil

Thanks for that Phil. Interestingly enough, the last 3 days, my morning wood is back. It hasn't been there for years. (I'm 47 now). I started my TRT about 3 months ago and just recently added HCG about 2 weeks ago. I've been on DIM and TMG for probably about 2 months. I'm trying to figure out why my wood is back these last 3 days.

 

[pmgamer18]

I never got morning wood on T and been on it for over 21 yrs. I had bad ED and could not reach an orgasm for over 10 yrs. Getting my E2 down gave me back my sex life now 61. I feel the morning wood came back from using the Indoloplx/DIM it brings down E2 by converting it to good E's and I feel it is that the good E's that bring on the morning wood. I have put this out there a lot at the H2 group and the men there are getting the same result on using Indolplex/DIM there morning wood came back a good 20 guys have had this happen on Indolplex/DIM.
Phil

 

[maxzax]

Thanks Phil,

From what I could understand it sounds like TMG does lower overall E's as well.

 

[stat1951]

Re: Tmg

Here's a cut and paste from an earlier posting on a different thread:

I'm taking a guess here, but I believe that the TMG (which can also be used in place of the product samE - as a much cheaper substitute or precursor - for those so interested) helps the liver in metabolizing E2 (and probably the other estrogens also) quicker from the body.

I had read quite a bit about samE (also known as SAMe or "Sammy" - (S-Adenosyl-Methionine). I recall specifically reading about SAMe's very positive effects on the liver where it is involved (quoting from below source) "in various detoxification pathways, including the proper metabolism of estrogen. ...(it is) also involved in the production of bile salts that help to digest fats."

See:

http://www.herbalhut.com/sam-e.htm
http://qualitycounts.com/fpsame.html
http://www.smart-drugs.net/JamesSouth-SAMe.htm

So if TMG (Tri-methyl-glycine) is a precursor to samE, then TMG would likewise aid in the proper metabolism of estrogens from the body. That would then likely account for the loss of bloating, no?

TMG also has a number of other very positive benefits *as shown by actual clinical trials, not simply anecdotal). Things like:

Homocysteine Lowering
Glutathione Elevation (the body's most important antioxidant)
Anti-depression (By raising level of beneficial samE)

http://www.energywave.com/what-ails...-connection.htm
http://qualitycounts.com/fptmg.html
http://www.lifeextensionvitamins.co...amins/tmg1.html
http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T36338.html

Anyway, I think that's why TMG is such a vital component to take along with DIM. As I understand it, DIM doesn't block the conversion of T to E2 as much as it converts E2 into the "good" estrogens (E1 and E3) - while also "possibly" metabolizing the estrogens somewhat more quickly. The TMG then aids the liver in metabolizing the estrogens out of the body (urine?) and is a general protective compound for liver functioning.

I think.

Larry

END OF POST

So it is likely that TMG (as with SAMe) would help in the reduction of Total Es simply in the fact that it apparently aids the liver in more rapidly metabolizing Es from the bloodstream. To what extent (i.e., how powerful that effect is), I don't know. TMG also helps the liver maintain a healthy state in general.

Also, I do not believe that DIM increases Total Es. My understanding of the performance of DIM is that it (primarily) has a beneficial action in that DIM converts "bad" estrogen (i.e., E2) into "good" estrogens (i.e., E1 and E3). Those are generic terms as obviously a "bad" estrogen such as E2 (estradiol) is clearly needed by the male body (too low levels of E2 can create their own aggravating problems!) - just that levels need to be controlled and elevated E2 levels tend to be one of the problem characteristics with hypogonadal males. Anywat, that would mean that Total Es would still be the same... except that I also believe that DIM has a slight secondary effect in speeding up the metabolizing of estrogens from the body.

So the combination of DIM and TMG "should" not only reduce E2 levels but also Total Es to an extent..... While TMG would have some degree of value in lowering Total Es, I'm not sure to what degree that would be and am not aware of any function that TMG has in specifically lowering E2 levels (other than E2 being a part of Total E levels obviously).

Larry

 

[earthdog]

Swale, said he treats his patients with DIM & TMG after taking their E2 down with Arimidex and when he doesn't want to lower E2 anymore, he adds DIM & TMG.

From my understanding DIM would increase total estrogens, so based on Swale's approach does that mean TMG would work to alleviate total estrogens?

If anyone knows please let me know.

Thanks!

I want to know, too. On two different labs taken 8 months and 2 months ago, I was at normal E2 but high total E. After the most recent labs, I started on 300mg DIM (BioResponse formula) and 750mg TMG daily. I'll be getting my next labs drawn on Tuesday, and I'll post the results when I get them. We'll then have what we call a "case study", right?

 

[stat1951]

I want to know, too. On two different labs taken 8 months and 2 months ago, I was at normal E2 but high total E. After the most recent labs, I started on 300mg DIM (BioResponse formula) and 750mg TMG daily. I'll be getting my next labs drawn on Tuesday, and I'll post the results when I get them. We'll then have what we call a "case study", right?

Hey, that will be great. Having an actual "comparison chart" (case study) should give us some basic ideas (though obviously there will be individual differences on how we each respond to DIM or TMG, just as there are with different forms of T or different brands of HcG, etc.).

Larry

 

[maxzax]

Thanks Larry great post, I saved your comments.

Earthdog,
Let us know how your results go, Im keenly awaiting your results.

Thanks!