Questions about bloodwork timing?

[Cml41987]

Ok so i have a few question on the timing of when one waits to have blood work done after last shot and how different time frames effect results... Here on meso the protocol is to wait like 24 to 48 hrs after last pin and reaults should be 7x to 10x the dose... Well over on asf the protocol they follow is to wait 7 daya after last pin.. If one was to wait 7 days after last pin how much would that effect the results and what do u think the results should come back at?? 3x 4x??? Any input would be nice... I am asking because i have been looking at a source on there and thy have bloodwork by members and everyone is saying is good results but they are far from 7 to 10x and they are saying when u wait 7 days the reaulsts are not going to be that high as it would be if u waited only 48 hrs... Anyone have any firsthand experience with this protocol are knowledge??? Thanks

 

[Boilermech]

We try to test closer to the peak times. Like for example if you go in and have your bloodwork done at say 48 to 72hrs after your last pin that would get you close to your peak levels which should be around 7x to 10x. You wait longer than that then your levels start to drop and the 7x to 10x rule will no longer be valid.

 

[Cml41987]

We try to test closer to the peak times. Like for example if you go in and have your bloodwork done at say 48 to 72hrs after your last pin that would get you close to your peak levels which should be around 7x to 10x. You wait longer than that then your levels start to drop and the 7x to 10x rule will no longer be valid.[/QUOTE
Right i understand that but my question is if you wait 7 days after last pin how much do they drop.. You think it should be at 3x 4x ????

 

[Docd187123]

Dr. Scally posted a study showing the pharmacokinetics of a single dose of test e. Peak serum levels were around the 10hr mark if I recall correctly. Can't find the thread it was in but maybe he can repost it here.

 

[Boilermech]

Dr. Scally posted a study showing the pharmacokinetics of a single dose of test e. Peak serum levels were around the 10hr mark if I recall correctly. Can't find the thread it was in but maybe he can repost it here.

10hr mark for test E, P or C?
I done an experiment on my last cycle and had bloods drawn at 24hrs, 48hrs and 72hrs after last pin and the 72hr test results were the highest out of the three.

 

[Docd187123]

10hr mark for test E, P or C?
I done an experiment on my last cycle and had bloods drawn at 24hrs, 48hrs and 72hrs after last pin and the 72hr test results were the highest out of the three.

I'm pretty sure it was test enanthate but I'm not positive. Hopefully Dr. Scally can repost it as I cannot find it

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Peak serum concentrations for enanthate is approximately 72hrs, and less than 24hrs for proprionate. This is for the average healthy male.

 

[Docd187123]

Not the study Dr. Scally posted

Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone enanthate and testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate as assessed by serum and salivary testosterone levels in normal men.
Clinical Trial
Schürmeyer T, et al. Int J Androl. 1984.
Show full citation
Abstract
The pharmacokinetics of 2 testosterone esters, testosterone enanthate and testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate, were compared in a single blind crossover study in healthy young men. Their effects on serum and salivary levels of testosterone, as well as on the serum levels of LH, FSH and prolactin were measured after the injection of doses equivalent to 140 mg free testosterone. Both preparations yielded supraphysiological testosterone levels in serum and saliva as early as 2 h following injection, reaching peak levels 4 to 5 times above basal between 8 and 24 h. LH and FSH levels were suppressed as long as serum testosterone levels were elevated. Nine days after injecting testosterone enanthate and 7 days after giving testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate, serum and salivary levels of testosterone had returned to basal. The longer activity of testosterone enanthate was also evidenced from more extended suppression of gonadotrophin levels. Although neither preparation is ideal because of the initial supraphysiological peaks, testosterone enanthate appears preferable for clinical use because of its slightly longer duration of action.

PMID
6434435 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Im confused a bit by the numbers above. I wish they would have posted the measured serum levels 72 hours after administration. I'll try to dig up the study im referring to.

 

[Boilermech]

I'm not debating whether I'm right or wrong here. All I know is the study I done on myself. I will more than likely perform another one of these studies on my next cycle and maybe throw in a 10hrs after last pin test if at all possible. I'm very interested in this for the case of being able to adjust my doses according to my test results. Also to know how close to accurate dosing the brand of test I'm running. Hopefully in time I'll get it down to a precise time frame to get the most accurate results for peak testosterone.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Boilertech, your peak serum concentrations for enanthate (or was it cypionate?) were around the 72 hour mark, correct?

 

[Boilermech]

To answer your question @Cml41987 yes. If I tested at 7 days after last pin I would expect it to drop significantly and I would not be surprised if it was at 4x
But the fact is not many people would run a blood test so late unless they were on TRT. There is a study out that actually shows TRT patients and what levels they got at 7 days after last pin. If I'm not mistaken I think they were around 4x to 5x. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Most TRT patients are almost baseline after nine days last pin.

 

[Boilermech]

Boilertech, your peak serum concentrations for enanthate (or was it cypionate?) were around the 72 hour mark, correct?

Yes. I had blood drawn at 24, 48 and 72hrs after pin and the 72hr mark gave me the highest numbers. I wish I would have kept going to see how fast it drops off.
It was enanthate.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Ok that's what i thought. Im trying to locate the comprehensive study that outlined serum concentrations for testosterone cypionate. I'll keep looking..

 

[Boilermech]

Not the study Dr. Scally posted

Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone enanthate and testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate as assessed by serum and salivary testosterone levels in normal men.
Clinical Trial
Schürmeyer T, et al. Int J Androl. 1984.
Show full citation
Abstract
The pharmacokinetics of 2 testosterone esters, testosterone enanthate and testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate, were compared in a single blind crossover study in healthy young men. Their effects on serum and salivary levels of testosterone, as well as on the serum levels of LH, FSH and prolactin were measured after the injection of doses equivalent to 140 mg free testosterone. Both preparations yielded supraphysiological testosterone levels in serum and saliva as early as 2 h following injection, reaching peak levels 4 to 5 times above basal between 8 and 24 h. LH and FSH levels were suppressed as long as serum testosterone levels were elevated. Nine days after injecting testosterone enanthate and 7 days after giving testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate, serum and salivary levels of testosterone had returned to basal. The longer activity of testosterone enanthate was also evidenced from more extended suppression of gonadotrophin levels. Although neither preparation is ideal because of the initial supraphysiological peaks, testosterone enanthate appears preferable for clinical use because of its slightly longer duration of action.

PMID
6434435 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Interesting study brother.
According to that study my highest levels should have been at the 24hr mark instead of the 72hr mark. I'm all sorts of confused now, lol. Well I am definitely going to have to do this experiment again my next cycle. Thanks for posting this.

 

[Docd187123]

I'm not debating whether I'm right or wrong here. All I know is the study I done on myself. I will more than likely perform another one of these studies on my next cycle and maybe throw in a 10hrs after last pin test if at all possible. I'm very interested in this for the case of being able to adjust my doses according to my test results. Also to know how close to accurate dosing the brand of test I'm running. Hopefully in time I'll get it down to a precise time frame to get the most accurate results for peak testosterone.

I'm not telling you whether you're right or wrong either. Just trying to get to the bottom of this as it would help standardize blood tests for us as users. Here's another thing I came across:

In a randomized cross-over study of six healthy males aged 20-29 years of age, the pharmacokinetics of a single injection of 200 mg testosterone cypionate was compared to that of a single injection of 194 mg testosterone enanthate. Mean serum testosterone concentrations increased sharply to 3 times the basal levels (approximately 1350 ng/dl) at 24 hours and declined gradually to basal levels (approximately 500 ng/dl) by day 10.

http://www.pfizer.ca/en/our_products/products/monograph/182

 

[Docd187123]

Where are you pinning also since I believe that can affect rate of metabolism but I doubt enough to cause that large a difference in peak levels (10-24hrs vs your 72hrs)

 

[Boilermech]

Where are you pinning also since I believe that can affect rate of metabolism but I doubt enough to cause that large a difference in peak levels (10-24hrs vs your 72hrs)

During that experiment I pinned strictly in the glutes only.

 

[Docd187123]

During that experiment I pinned strictly in the glutes only.

Glutes from what I understand are an area of high blood flow and tend to metabolize quicker than other areas. Very smart thinking though to not rotate sites for the experiment!