Questions about TRT with testosterone Undecanoate

[Xilence7]

I'm starting TRT in a few weeks and after a lot of reading, I still have some questions that I would like to ask here

My avg. levels for the last year and a half:

total T: 340 ng/dl
free T: 0.295 nmol/L -- ref (0.091 - 0.579)
SHBG: 25 nmol/L -- ref (18.3 - 54.1)
free T % -- 2.32% -- ref (1.59 - 2.95)

- 30 years old, training 15 years on and off, 10% body fat, diet on point most of the time, no smoking, sometimes drinking

My goal is to go long-term with it with the least side effects, the only one that I'm concerned about is MPB. I lost some hair since 25 so I would like to stay low
I understand everybody is different and I might hyper respond or be even at the lower numbers

Since I'm traveling a lot, and I go the UGL route, I decided to start with an undecanoate, few questions:

Is the dose of 250mg every 2 weeks too low? It's like 115mg of test per week, right?
Is the same dose better every 10 days?
If I decide to preload, could I take 250mg every 5 days for 10 days then continue 250mg every 10 days? When the levels will stabilize?
I would not need AI but I could order one box just in case?
Any tips on lower-end SHBG with less frequent pinning?

Any advice would be helpful!
Thank you guys a lot

 

[OldGHGuy]

There is a ton of information on this board relating to all of your questions. I would research first, then come back to ask any additional questions that remain. Overall, questions relating to "too low" or the "right dose" will depend solely on YOU as everyone is different. So, in order to dial in your TRT you will need to commit to regular blood testing to understand what drugs/dosages/frequencies etc put you in ranges you are comfortable with and feel good on. Good luck in your journey...

 

[Xilence7]

There is a ton of information on this board relating to all of your questions. I would research first, then come back to ask any additional questions that remain. Overall, questions relating to "too low" or the "right dose" will depend solely on YOU as everyone is different. So, in order to dial in your TRT you will need to commit to regular blood testing to understand what drugs/dosages/frequencies etc put you in ranges you are comfortable with and feel good on. Good luck in your journey...

I got your point, and I was reading a lot. Really a lot. But I hope you know how it works, sometimes you need that last confirmation, last tips before starting and there is a lot of info for different kind of questions, similar, but not the same. That is why I asked here

 

[buck]

I would start with about 110mg/week and get blood work 2 months later when levels stabilized. The adjust as needed. and for long trips with out taking any gear i would take a little more but not sweat it.

 

[OldGHGuy]

I would start with about 110mg/week and get blood work 2 months later when levels stabilized. The adjust as needed. and for long trips with out taking any gear i would take a little more but not sweat it.

Reasonable starting point.

 

[TheBootstrap]

total T: 340 ng/dl
free T: 0.295 nmol/L -- ref (0.091 - 0.579)
SHBG: 25 nmol/L -- ref (18.3 - 54.1)
free T % -- 2.32% -- ref (1.59 - 2.95)

Have you been diagnosed with hypogonadism? Primary or Secondary? Was a symptom evaluation done, such as the ADAM questionnaire?

The reason I ask is that your free-T is only 12% below the middle of the reference range (0.335). TRT as a treatment for a legitimate medical condition is a serious commitment. You are committing to injectable drug treatment for the rest of your life.

It's quite possible that you have hypogonadal symptoms and need to be, for example, in the upper third of the reference range, but just be aware that your free-T level does not point toward hypogonadism. There is some dispute over the Free Hormone Hypothesis, but my impression is that the majority of evidence points toward free-T having a better correlation to hypogonadism than total-T. Also, the free-T should be measured by equilibrium dialysis to be reliable. If not, then ignore what I said above.

If your desire is to just "feel supercharged" or something like that, no moral judgment here, but it's best to be clear, at least to yourself, about what your goals are.

If you decide to pursue TRT, I suggest dialing in your level with Test-Cyp first, because Test-U takes so long to stabilize once any change is made. You could also use Test-E, but PIP reports for Test-E are not uncommon (due to raws? Liska was investigating this before he was busted) so I'd stick with Test-Cyp, injecting something like 2-3 times per week. Then, once you've found your weekly dose, transition over to Test-U. This assumes you'll have a period in your life low on travel to find your level with Cyp. Note also that the injection frequencies cited for Test-U are typically with castor oil. If you get a UGL Test-U in a different carrier oil, like MCT, that could substantially decrease the half-life and making injecting every two weeks problematic. There was a study on castor vs tea oil that showed castor half-life was 50% longer, though that was also confounded by having double the concentration, and I don't know what implications that might have. Just be ready to inject more often than every 2 weeks, if needed.

An alternative is to sign up with someone like Defy, get a script and a few vials to use minimally while traveling, and then stop with them. Not sure how much that would cost, but it's an option to get you legal travelling Test while using UGL at home.

Best of luck.

 

[lukiss96]

What oil is it? I would go once per week or every 10 days.

Also use steroid plotter (old version is better) to figure out how to dose it for desired results. Don't forget to factor in the loading to reach stable levels much faster than 100 days. For example once weekly injection of TU is comparable to TE/TC every other day. That's in sesame oil. Castor oil is different and is even longer half life.

My advice is still once per week or at least every 10 days regardless.

There is a lot of quality information on TU on this very forum just search, some posts are mine too. I shared my experience with it.

 

[Xilence7]

Have you been diagnosed with hypogonadism? Primary or Secondary? Was a symptom evaluation done, such as the ADAM questionnaire?

The reason I ask is that your free-T is only 12% below the middle of the reference range (0.335). TRT as a treatment for a legitimate medical condition is a serious commitment. You are committing to injectable drug treatment for the rest of your life.

It's quite possible that you have hypogonadal symptoms and need to be, for example, in the upper third of the reference range, but just be aware that your free-T level does not point toward hypogonadism. There is some dispute over the Free Hormone Hypothesis, but my impression is that the majority of evidence points toward free-T having a better correlation to hypogonadism than total-T. Also, the free-T should be measured by equilibrium dialysis to be reliable. If not, then ignore what I said above.

If your desire is to just "feel supercharged" or something like that, no moral judgment here, but it's best to be clear, at least to yourself, about what your goals are.

If you decide to pursue TRT, I suggest dialing in your level with Test-Cyp first, because Test-U takes so long to stabilize once any change is made. You could also use Test-E, but PIP reports for Test-E are not uncommon (due to raws? Liska was investigating this before he was busted) so I'd stick with Test-Cyp, injecting something like 2-3 times per week. Then, once you've found your weekly dose, transition over to Test-U. This assumes you'll have a period in your life low on travel to find your level with Cyp. Note also that the injection frequencies cited for Test-U are typically with castor oil. If you get a UGL Test-U in a different carrier oil, like MCT, that could substantially decrease the half-life and making injecting every two weeks problematic. There was a study on castor vs tea oil that showed castor half-life was 50% longer, though that was also confounded by having double the concentration, and I don't know what implications that might have. Just be ready to inject more often than every 2 weeks, if needed.

An alternative is to sign up with someone like Defy, get a script and a few vials to use minimally while traveling, and then stop with them. Not sure how much that would cost, but it's an option to get you legal travelling Test while using UGL at home.

Best of luck.

This will be a longer post and I appreciate the answer. I went to the two different doctors and they said my levels are fine. I understand what you mean but this idea didn't pop out of nowhere, ofcourse I tried a lot of things before making this decision. For the last 5 years I'm pretty consistent with stretching each morning, less stress in life, proper diet and training is on point, cold showers, I have a 7 hours of good sleep, I tried supplementation and I'm still on 350ng/dL of total T?

When I was younger and in puberty I was on the edge, aggressive, with insane boners, I was very egoistic and confident but at one point around age 23 I felt a significant drop in my well-being, my libido is non existent, I'm performing few times a year with cialis, I don't have desire for sex and I have morning wood maybe 10 times a year. Considering all of that, and my active lifestyle with sports, I even went to therapy like 3 years ago, once a week for two months thinking that I maybe have some mental issues and after a few sessions, she told me that I am very self aware of my thoughts and actions and I'm completely fine regarding mental health. I don't want to brag but a lot of girls are into me but this sexual side of the problems put me away from having sex because I need to think about the pills or I'll get embarrassed because my D is at 70% top. Not to mention that I really need to train and eat like a monster to get a kilo or two, and after only a week of stopping I start losing weight like crazy. My blood picture is fine, sugar levels, thyroid hormones, etc.

I don't want to imagine how I will feel and how my levels will look like if I lived like 80% of the people. I can't say that I'm depressed about it, but now at the age of 30, I have nothing to lose, I can try for a year to go as low as possible without many side effects, or I can still be living at 50% of my potential. So I think I'll give it a go

Defy is in the USA right? Well, I know it's stupid but I was thinking to fake the paper or something because in the next years I'll fly abroad for many months and I need to plan about getting the dose there or buy a script or anything like that...

I will think about the test C, since 120mg of test U weekly at the beginning with preloading phase will give me stable levels in like 10 days, as far as steroid plotter says. So the only adjustments can be like 20mg up or down, I don't want to go high, I just want to be around 800-1000 feeling like I used to. I still look good so normal TRT dose can be only a bonus for getting my sexual function back, I started gym because of the gains but now I'm addicted to the pain and energy from it so anything else is only a bonus.

 

[Xilence7]

What oil is it? I would go once per week or every 10 days.

Also use steroid plotter (old version is better) to figure out how to dose it for desired results. Don't forget to factor in the loading to reach stable levels much faster than 100 days. For example once weekly injection of TU is comparable to TE/TC every other day. That's in sesame oil. Castor oil is different and is even longer half life.

My advice is still once per week or at least every 10 days regardless.

There is a lot of quality information on TU on this very forum just search, some posts are mine too. I shared my experience with it.

I've read a lot of your comments and I even wanted to contact you but there is no private message or I cant find it at your profile.

Anyway, I still didn't order, but I'm looking at the product from the company on "H" and "D", they provide undecanoate. Pinning every 10 days is also fine, I need to see how my estrogen is behaving and how I feel

Using steroid plotter, 120mg every week with preloading 215mg every 3.5 days for a week gives the jump and stable peaks at around 1000-1100 ng/dL, looking at the graph I will reach stable levels after around 8-10 days. Is it correct? Should I take first bloods after 2 weeks or I should give more time?

I would like to know more about your protocol and number since I see that you're using the same compound, we all differ but at least to get some insights what to expect.
Thanks mate!

 

[UncleBuns]

I've read a lot of your comments and I even wanted to contact you but there is no private message or I cant find it at your profile.

Anyway, I still didn't order, but I'm looking at the product from the company on "H" and "D", they provide undecanoate. Pinning every 10 days is also fine, I need to see how my estrogen is behaving and how I feel

Using steroid plotter, 120mg every week with preloading 215mg every 3.5 days for a week gives the jump and stable peaks at around 1000-1100 ng/dL, looking at the graph I will reach stable levels after around 8-10 days. Is it correct? Should I take first bloods after 2 weeks or I should give more time?

I would like to know more about your protocol and number since I see that you're using the same compound, we all differ but at least to get some insights what to expect.
Thanks mate!

The plotter website will give you a reasonable guess at how much mg's of test will be released per day in your body. The actual number though is different for everybody. The plotter will not give you your blood levels though. The only way to do that is to follow a protocol and when you hit stabilization of the compound you go get blood work.

 

[Xilence7]

The plotter website will give you a reasonable guess at how much mg's of test will be released per day in your body. The actual number though is different for everybody. The plotter will not give you your blood levels though. The only way to do that is to follow a protocol and when you hit stabilization of the compound you go get blood work.

Yes I understand, it is a base for the beginning. If I'm responding poory, I could up the dose by 20mg or if the bloodwork shows more than 1100 maybe I'll lower it down a little. I've read that with undecanoate if I change the dose, I feel the difference after approx 3 months? That is a pain in the ass, but still I think changing the dose for a little mgs wouldn't give some crazy ups and downs how I feel? It will be a gradual shift with the blood markers also, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only reading about it haha

The only thing is correct timing of the next bloodwork after adjusting?

 

[UncleBuns]

Yes I understand, it is a base for the beginning. If I'm responding poory, I could up the dose by 20mg or if the bloodwork shows more than 1100 maybe I'll lower it down a little. I've read that with undecanoate if I change the dose, I feel the difference after approx 3 months? That is a pain in the ass, but still I think changing the dose for a little mgs wouldn't give some crazy ups and downs how I feel? It will be a gradual shift with the blood markers also, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only reading about it haha

The only thing is correct timing of the next bloodwork after adjusting?

No, it won't take 3 months for dosage change to take effect. All esters spike after injection then start dropping at different speeds. 3 months would be about 5 half lives, so that's the amount of time it takes for the undeconate ester to not have activity in your body any longer (more or less). Go on steroid plotter, use separate compound entries, plot your loading dose (week 1 +2) your post loading weekly dose (week 3 - 10), then at some point change the weekly dose by 20mg (week 11 - 20). You'll see the lines drift down in a reasonable amount of time. If you have higher or lower T levels than you'd like on your first TRT bloods it's no biggie. Adjust dose, and test again some weeks later.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Any advice would be helpful!
Thank you guys a lot

I don't think you should be using test U.

Start with test c, see if this is something you want to do for the rest of your life... a year in, if you see sure. Look at test U

 

[UncleBuns]

I don't think you should be using test U.

Start with test c, see if this is something you want to do for the rest of your life... a year in, if you see sure. Look at test U

Good point. Probably best to spend a good while pinning and seeing if you really want to live on TRT before loading up on a long ester.

 

[Xilence7]

No, it won't take 3 months for dosage change to take effect. All esters spike after injection then start dropping at different speeds. 3 months would be about 5 half lives, so that's the amount of time it takes for the undeconate ester to not have activity in your body any longer (more or less). Go on steroid plotter, use separate compound entries, plot your loading dose (week 1 +2) your post loading weekly dose (week 3 - 10), then at some point change the weekly dose by 20mg (week 11 - 20). You'll see the lines drift down in a reasonable amount of time. If you have higher or lower T levels than you'd like on your first TRT bloods it's no biggie. Adjust dose, and test again some weeks later.

I never tried that with the steroidplotter but it makes sense! I think I will order TC also and start with it then if everything is fine continue with U

I don't think you should be using test U.

Start with test c, see if this is something you want to do for the rest of your life... a year in, if you see sure. Look at test U

You're right, I will order test C for 2-3 months and then if I'm symptoms free I will continue with U and try to test it with the least frequent pinning

Can you tell me the differences between these 2 esters as I've read that long esters are more anabolic but spike e2 more or something. Some people dont feel the same on those two, could you write pros and cons? Or there is none?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Can you tell me the differences between these 2 esters as I've read that long esters are more anabolic but spike e2 more or something. Some people dont feel the same on those two, could you write pros and cons? Or there is none?

Sorry, gonna be honest with you.

I am not gonna write it out. go look up the difference of Test P and C for TRT. or benefits of Nebido.

 

[UncleBuns]

I never tried that with the steroidplotter but it makes sense! I think I will order TC also and start with it then if everything is fine continue with U

You're right, I will order test C for 2-3 months and then if I'm symptoms free I will continue with U and try to test it with the least frequent pinning

Can you tell me the differences between these 2 esters as I've read that long esters are more anabolic but spike e2 more or something. Some people dont feel the same on those two, could you write pros and cons? Or there is none?

@Spaceman Spiff is right. I'd use test C or E for a year before getting into undeconate.

 

[Xilence7]

Sorry, gonna be honest with you.

I am not gonna write it out. go look up the difference of Test P and C for TRT. or benefits of Nebido.

Alright! There is a lot of info and sometimes misleading info from people who don't even do T.

I should stop educating and start pinning

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Alright! There is a lot of info and sometimes misleading info from people who don't even do T.

I'm should stop educating and start pinning

its not that. you are doing something self prescribed. There is alot of information out there.

I am just not going to do a full blown educational write up for someone who just joined this forum 2 days ago.

 

[TheBootstrap]

This will be a longer post and I appreciate the answer. I went to the two different doctors and they said my levels are fine. I understand what you mean but this idea didn't pop out of nowhere, ofcourse I tried a lot of things before making this decision. For the last 5 years I'm pretty consistent with stretching each morning, less stress in life, proper diet and training is on point, cold showers, I have a 7 hours of good sleep, I tried supplementation and I'm still on 350ng/dL of total T?

It certainly sounds like you've spent a decent amount of time reflecting on your situation, which is good to hear. My suggestions were mainly toward that end. The only other thing I'd recommend would be an extensive set of bloodwork. I know you said your blood picture is fine, but did you get an extensive set of labs including vitamin-D, iron and ferritin, and perhaps other relevant tests? Vitamin-D and iron+ferritin are the two that come to mind for deficiencies affecting mental well-being, but I'm sure there are others on this forum who could give you more educated suggestions about what tests to have done before the full TRT commitment, given your particular situation.

Defy Medical is in the US, yes. There might be better options for you, but personally I'd use Defy as my starting point to evaluate other clinics against during the research phase. I think you can give them copies of your previous bloodwork to avoid paying that cost. I have no insight whether faking a script would lead to more problems than just getting caught with a vial of test, but a lot of the risk/consequences might also depend on what countries you'll be visiting.

You might also just continue to try different doctors until you find one that doesn't blindly go by "total testosterone is within the reference range, so you're ok" or even switch to a local doctor after you've demonstrated that TRT works to alleviate your symptoms.