Restoring Natural Test or HRT

[trip]

Swale,

I've read your site and it is very impressive, and like the fact that you do not generalize things and actually strive to find out the specifics, know how important that is for overall success.

Little background on me, be training 30 yrs., well read in area and also nutrion, eat well and train regularly, always.

My present dilema seems to be restitution to natural test levels or some HRT.

Here's what happened.

In 2001 & 2002 had two surgeries for thoracic outlet syndrome. On one side nerves had been under compression for 3.5 years, found a doctor who decided to give anabolic steroids a shot to restore nerve damage, he said, and did check references as to having used this therapy in muscular dystraphy patients to some success.

Well, did 300 mg a week of test and 300 mg of deca for several months. In the seventh month just seemed to crash, lost all muscule gains and went on PCT of clomid and novladex.

Over next three months energy levels just seemed very lacking, which effected other areas of life. In 2nd week of Feb. got test levels checked and general bloodwork, all bloodwork was fine and test came in at 450, which is not bad for a 45 yr. old, except my levels were 750 before I started.

The general thing is that overall energy from my norm. is just horrible still, and all the consequences are beginning to compound, business, socially etc. I've still maintained all work outs and eating well, yet, for all my effort have seemed to gain some fat on glutes, hams, and lower back, and I'm lean and in good shape, low BF maybe 11% in general, and this accumulation of fat has never ever happened before in these area's, and it is not a diet or training issue, as these as normal, meaning way above norm.

Now, my strength and recuperation is horrible, that's a given.

So, main question I guess, is cause I have damaged my normal test producation such so can't get old me back, or even better what is the next step too get back to producing gains for my effort of eating and training right, of course in line with long term health.

Side note, do due cardio.

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[SWALE]

I would have preferred an avoidance of deca. Yours is an all-too-common story with this drug.

You may well be permanently hypogondal now. It does happen. Or you may recover naturally.

I'd like to see where the rest of your hormones are at.

 

[trip]

Thanks for feedback, lol, well in some ways we are all common, guess this is mine.

Yes, getting all hormones check seems like the best next step.

Shot you the e-mail, so let me know.

Trip

 

[greyowl]

I'd be particularly interested in seeing what your estrogen levels are like.

Swale will take issue with me on this but if it turns out that your are hypogonadal with high estrogen, you might try to arimidex at 2 gms ed x 5 weeks followed by i gm eod x 5 weeks. This worked for me.

yeah, yeah I know, estrogen is essential and abusing arimidex will drive estrogen levels down to unsustainable levels, ok fine I agree. But I sincerely doubt that trying this approach for only 10 weeks will cause a big ruckus for your body. Using it for more than 10 weeks would be pointless, if it hasn't worked by then to reset the HTPA it never will.

OK Swale, I got the boxing gloves on. Let's dance!

 

[trip]

greyowl,

Well we will find out estro levels, out of curiosity what was your cycle and age like when you got shut down, any blood before and after blood tests.

 

[SWALE]

Well, greyowl, I guess 'Ol Doc doesn't feel like rolling up his sleaves today. Allow me to add this:

Removing estrogenic inhibition at the HP has indeed worked for some men to restart the HPTA. However, I'd rather see this done by blocking estrogenic receptors with a drug of the SERM class (Nolvadex, Clomid, Evista, etc.) than though such extreme aromatase inhibiiton.

Also, I'm sure you meant "mg", rather than "gm" in your dosing. And I do not think it should take 10 weeks to produce the desirable effect, IF it is going to happen.

Too, initiating apropriate TRT to men with high estrogen can even drop estrogen levels. I have no idea why this would be, but everyone who has done any real work in this area probably has seen it. That is why I do not use any estrogen-modifying medciations until T is properly tuned up first.

 

[DLMCBBB]

SWALE:

It was my understanding that testosterone therapy will not lower estrogen levels unless antiestrogen medication is part of the threatment.

Please define "everyone who has done any real workin this area".

Dustin

 

[SWALE]

For some strange reason, sometimes we will see elevated estrogen levels actually COME DOWN once you start TRT. I wish I had an explanation for how this could happen. For now, "it just does". Those of us who have prescribed TRT enough--AND appropriately monitor hormones on follow-up (IMPO, malpractice if you do not)--will see this phenomen.

 

[tonyatl]

So, main question I guess, is cause I have damaged my normal test producation such so can't get old me back, or even better what is the next step too get back to producing gains for my effort of eating and training right, of course in line with long term health.

please permit me to butt in here even though i am not a dr nor play one on tv...i have read in a number of places now how essential diet is to test levels....for example one study recommended a diet of 40% fat for optimizing test production.....the argument is that fat and cholesterol are essential for test production.....of course u want the right kinds of fat but i believe that many test problems could be solved by diet...

also over extension in exercise can deplete and militate against test...cardio is a prime candidate...i do cardio and weight training as they are important but some folks take it to the point of impairing test levels....

i already hear the crap about fat is bad and what moron would follow such a diet ( i did )...please save it .... i felt good on it but i dropped it once i got serious about body building and realized i would be following aas treatment....the point is that fat is not evil and an essential pre-cursor to test production....

 

[SWALE]

I have been told that 40% of vegetarians are hypogonadal.

The brain is basically made of fat. Think about that.

It is important to control which TYPE of fats you get. I recommend 3 grams of Omega 3's per day, and limiting Omega 6's to a 2:1 ratio. Number One Rule: NO trans fatty acids (AKA partially hydrogenated).

 

[SD1959]

I have been told that 40% of vegetarians are hypogonadal.

The brain is basically made of fat. Think about that.

It is important to control which TYPE of fats you get. I recommend 3 grams of Omega 3's per day, and limiting Omega 6's to a 2:1 ratio. Number One Rule: NO trans fatty acids (AKA partially hydrogenated).

Is there a particular source or product you recommend to take to get the 3grams of Omega 3?

 

[SWALE]

A concern is the accumulation of toxics from inferior fish oils. I'd stay away from cod liver oil, because PCB's etc tend to accumulate there. Get a good brand, and look for an assay of contaminants.

 

[desert]

Is there a particular source or product you recommend to take to get the 3grams of Omega 3?

i've read and am using fresh water salmon oil. Heard alot of good stuff about it.
http://www.vitalchoice.com/shop/shop2.cfm?category=19

 

[Cronk]

450 is still within the medical communitie's definition of a normal range for you. It's on the low end and I understand that you want to get yourself back up to the higher end of normal. I would like to know if 450 is average for a 45yo. HRT can be expensive but it might be worth it for you. If you look around long enough I'm sure you can find a doc to get you a perscription for HRT. Bump for more info on getting this guy's test levels back up to where it once was.

When I'm on cycle and my strength is up and I'm getting better pumps, my TOS kicks in for both my shoulders. I'm surprised that aas is used post TOS surgery for nerve therapy.

Good luck
cronk