shots are not working.

[pmgamer18]

They only last for half of the week 3 days before my next 100 mg. shot and I feel like shit. I don't know if I need more or I need to go back to the mix of Gel and shots along with a lot of Arimidex. I was thinking about trying Hcg with the shots but I have been primary for over 21 yrs. and just don't see how it will help. I also under stand it drives up your E2. I see my Dr. this week and we will see what happens. I just don't know maybe this is as good as it gets. I am still having some joint and muscle pain so it may well be I need a high amount in my shot.
Phil

 

[mranak]

Feeling a drop in serum testosterone at the end of the week isn't at all uncommon and that is why SWALE prescribes hCG near the end of the week to help fill that gap as hCG stimulates the leydig cells to produce testosterone and add some testosterone as the testosterone cypionate begins to drop. However, it sounds like you are experiencing the drop a bit earlier.

It is really hard to know what is happening without labwork. Maybe your dose of testosterone cypionate dosage is insufficient. Also, I know that you have been sensitive to estradiol issues. Estradiol tends to peak a little bit later than when testosterone peaks, so I think it is possible that your estradiol is in fact too high.

It makes sense that stable hormone levels are more difficult to maintain with weekly dosing as opposed to daily dosing of a compound gel or cream.

SWALE never commented on it and probably sees no reason for it, but we did have a discussion about twice weekly injections on the old board at http://www.sculptedbyiron.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11942

Personally, I don't notice a day to day difference like so many other guys on TRT. I have to judge my reaction to TRT on more of a monthly basis.

 

[pmgamer18]

Hi the shots keep my pain down my Dr. was adding them to my Testim but hell it made my E2 go nuts now that I know that most of my problems were from high E2 I can tell when it goes up. Doing the shots 100 mgs. every week have kept my E2 down. Doing the shots is a test to see how I do we have never done shots every week. 21 yrs. ago when I first started on TRT all they had was pill that women took but it got me going so I could go back to work. I was only on them for 3 months then the shots came out. But at that time they did not know about E2 so the shot was once a month this was a bad roller coaster ride. And I don't feel it as bad on the shots every week but the pain is still bad enough to keep me on my ass. I have been going over Dr. John's treatment of adding a low dose of Hcg 250 IU's the last 2 days before the shot. But there is not any thing I can show my Dr. that will convince him to try this. He said when we started on the shots that 100 mgs. may not be enough and if I start to crash to tell him but I have not crashed and have had 6 weeks of shots. He also said I may need to do the testim but 5 grams with the shots. I have never had any trouble getting my levels up on gels but the gels don't help with the pain and the shots do why I have no idea. I am taking Indolplex/DIM a half a pill a day and it is keeping my E2 in check.
Phil

 

[Weatherlite]

I'm primary also but the HCG does help. Besides, if your Leydig cells have been resting for 21 years you may get better response out of them than you'd expect. Of course I guess the opposite would be true too.

Without labs it's hard to say. If you're at the top of the range on 100mg then I'd say it's time to start HCG. If not then you may need to up the dose. And as far as E2 elevation with HCG, according to the research it's only after 500iu that the E2 is raised too high in relation to T. That's per dose. So, you may be fine.

Just make sure your doc monitors your blood. Perhaps you could just talk to him about how HCG stimulates natural production to aid your exo T? Can't hurt to try.

 

[mranak]

pmgamer18: The hCG is effectively the same as LH, which is put out by your pituitary gland to stimulate your testes to make some testosterone. I wonder if you doctor understands what hCG is, how it works, etc. hCG is good stuff, but many doctors are hesitant to prescribe it. If you are feeling down an entire 3 days prior to your next injection, then perhaps you really do need to increase your testosterone cypionate dosage. Hard to say without a blood test.

 

[pmgamer18]

The last time I talked to him I asked about using Hcg and he does know about it's use in secondary hypogonadism but he said something about it burning out something. I think he was thinking about real high shots of Hcg I droped off Dr. John's Protocol on Hcg so we well see what he says. I went shopping for shoes today at 4 stores. I just got home and I am beat very tired I know I am not right.
Phil

 

[Astrozombie]

I'm going out on a limb here and speaking about stuff I don't really know about

In my reading on HRT I've read that different types of testosterone have different half lives. I don't understand why only the types with the longest half life would be prescribed, but thats why I'm not a Dr.

I am on generic Testosterone Cyprionate which according to the pamphlet has a half life of 8 days. What is the half life of the brand you are using? If it is less than 8 days then maybe you should change?

I just started the injections 4 weeks ago and am trying to gauge how often I need them. I'm thinking every 6 days would be optimal for me.

 

[pmgamer18]

I was just going to post this question what is the best shot of T. I talked to a guy yesterday that is seeing Dr. Shippen the author of the book "The Testosterone Syndrome" he said the Depo T I am using is old school and that he is doing T-Cypionate and shooting him self in the belly as per Dr. Shippen. Now I have heard this at the Hypogonadism2 groupe for a few guys that are doing do good they don't post anymore.
So what are you guys using for your shots.
Phil

 

[mranak]

Depo-Testosterone is simply the brand name for Testosterone Cypionate. They are the same thing.

If I understand correctly, your friend is shooting his testosterone cypionate sub-q (into the fat of the belly) rather than intramuscular. Doing so seems to make sense because:

1) Injections into the fat are slower absorbed than IM injections. Thus, the half-life may be effectively prolonged or perhaps the metabolism of the testosterone cypionate would be differnet. However, I don't know if this is true in practice. It wouldn't surprise me if results were actually more inconsistent.

2) Sub-q injections obviously don't damage any muscle tissue and are easier to do.

Testosterone cypionate is oil soluable, not water soluable, so it comes in oil. I _think_ that SWALE objects to injecting oil sub-q into the adipose tissue (fat).

 

[pmgamer18]

Yes I read that he says to inject into the muscle. This is why we need to get as much input as possible to make a good decision on the best way to go. When I read Dr. Shippen's book he was not for shots but then at the time shots were every other month and drove up E2 levels. Now I talk to the men that see Dr. Shippen and he now uses shots. So things are changing by the day. And as big as my ass is when I get my shot at the Dr.'s it is not in the muscle.
Phil

 

[mranak]

You are getting a lump after you get your injection at the doctor's office? Gosh, if that nurse is missing the muscle, then that is really quite sad. There is no excuse for that.

 

[pmgamer18]

No I have no lump I have a lot of fat on my ass you need a long ass neddle to hit the meat.
Phil

 

[SWALE]

Making the half-life of the T longer does not help, especially when trying to set the dose initially. Who wants to wait most of a year to get tuned up?

Also, we do not yet know if subQ oil-based injections are bad for you.

Anti-Aging Medicine is "out there" enough, IMPO, without doing something like that.