Sorry I doubted the 5x5

[GeaR_and_SauCe]

I've been reading the basic principles of the 5x5 routine and I doubted how well it would work. However, with all the good feedback, I had to give it a try. I did my own variation of it and I'm not sure if it truely was a 5x5 routine because I only worked 1 body part but heres what I did. Saturday, I went into the gym for a leg work out. I started out with basic squats. I did 5 sets of 5, moving the weight up by 50lb incriments starting at 200lbs. I achieved my goal and completed the last set of 5 which came to be 400lbs. After I was done the squats I felt the routine was too easy and doubted it did me any good. I moved on and did 3 sets of leg extensions, 3 sets of leg curls and then some calf raises and I left the gym. I get home and everything was fine. I woke up yet yesterday morning with a soreness in my legs that I have no felt in a long time. Today is even worse. I can barely get up off the toilet and walking up steps seems almost impossible. For the longest time, I've been looking for a routine that is quick, simple and would make me feel this way. I'm not sure the way I implemented it is the correct way but never the less I no longer doubt the system. Try it out for yourself and see if you like it. I did.

 

[Freddy]

No, thats not the 5x5 at all.

Glad you found something that made you sore. If there was a correlation between soreness and hypertrophy you'd be well on your way.

 

[Madcow2]

The rep scheme you used was 5 set of 5 in a pyramid. Not too similar overall, it's just a solid rep/set scheme for basic compound movements. The beauty of the real 5x5 program if you arrange it with a volume/deload/intensity phasing over a number of weeks is that you will make some massive gains in strength and muscle. Don't throw in much/any assistance work as you won't be able to handle it beyond the first few weeks. Don't expect to get sore the vast majority of the time because your body will acclimate to the system (in contrast to the BBing method of superbombing a muscle with a shotgun exercise selection once a week and praying you show up stronger the next time). Lay out the program and then follow it. By week 6, after the volume is dropped down from the substantial first period, you'll see a major difference in your strength and musculature - and that's the reward. Far better than soreness IMO.

 

[Grizzly]

No, thats not the 5x5 at all.

Glad you found something that made you sore. If there was a correlation between soreness and hypertrophy you'd be well on your way.

LOL Yeah, that's just about what I was going to say.

 

[AnimalMass]

No, thats not the 5x5 at all.

Glad you found something that made you sore. If there was a correlation between soreness and hypertrophy you'd be well on your way.

LOL. Gear and Sauce, while Fred is harsh, he is entirely right. Keep reading the board and you'll start to have your eyes opened. Read every single thing that's stickied, it's there for a reason.

Matt

 

[kenneth]

the 5x5..

the 5x5 is the best program i have ever used before, every friday i add 10 pounds to my squats and my bench without fail. (7 weeks in) my deadlifts are only going up at a rate of 5 pounds every wednesday, i think it's because all the squatting is taking it's toll on me.

 

[GeaR_and_SauCe]

im reading about it but i don't understand exactly how it works. you use 5 sets of 5 reps and move up by the same incriments each time. the last set should be nearly impossible? I don't know I don't get it. I know it has to do with working multiple body parts each day but I don't like the training split given. I'm very confused. I guess I will have to keep reading. If someone could please try to explain this to me, I would appreciate it.

 

[GeaR_and_SauCe]

Im getting really frusterated:
(From JohnSmith stick)
" For example, the same athlete used in the other example may do 135 for 5, 185 for 5, 225 for 3, 275 for 2, 315 for 1, then 350 for 5 sets of 5. When successfull with all 25 reps at 350lbs, bump the weight up the next workout by 5 or 10lbs. "


Ok so not counting the leg curls and extensions, this is what I did. Squats:

Set 1: 200 x 5
Set 2: 250 x 5
Set 3: 300 x 5
Set 4: 350 x 5
Set 5: 400 x 5

If this is not exactly as stated above, then I don't know what is. I'm getting frusterated because I'm reading conflicting information here.

 

[chiseled21]

the 135 through 315 were warm up sets, there is no leg extensions or leg curls invloved. If you follow the routine you will not need isolation movements such as leg curls or extensions because you will already not be able to walk. When I first started these type of routines I felt like I should be doing more exercises also so I know where you are coming from. Doing just the mass building exercises outlined you will find yourself breaking plateaus and feeling alot better.
Best of luck

 

[Nevr2Big]

Disclaimer:
All this was said before, just not in so many words


Ok - I think I figured out where you are coming from. In your initial thread, you mentioned that you modified the 5x5 to where you were only working out one body part at a time. If this holds true for all your workouts, then there is not enough days in the week to work out the entire body more than once (ie each bodypart once a week, ala typical bodybuilding routine). The rest of my post will be based on this assumption -- disregard it if the assumption is incorrect.

I think you are focusing on the wrong part of the 5x5 program. The point is not the 5 sets of 5 reps (well, part of it is, but not the major part in relation to older training theory). The big point is, as was stated before, the loading and deloading. The progression of weights that you mentioned works best when it is the second or third squat workout of the week, after the 5 straight sets. Just remember in dual theory training, a couple of weeks of squats is treated like one day of leg workout in single factor theory. Thats the BIG point of 5x5.

 

[kenneth]

Im getting really frusterated:
(From JohnSmith stick)
" For example, the same athlete used in the other example may do 135 for 5, 185 for 5, 225 for 3, 275 for 2, 315 for 1, then 350 for 5 sets of 5. When successfull with all 25 reps at 350lbs, bump the weight up the next workout by 5 or 10lbs. "


Ok so not counting the leg curls and extensions, this is what I did. Squats:

Set 1: 200 x 5
Set 2: 250 x 5
Set 3: 300 x 5
Set 4: 350 x 5
Set 5: 400 x 5

If this is not exactly as stated above, then I don't know what is. I'm getting frusterated because I'm reading conflicting information here.

what you did is what you should do on friday if you follow the routine as is. what you did is, built up to a 5 rep max building up the weight by the same increments each time until you reached your 5th set which should be your 5 rep maximum. the example that you just quoted from john smith is how it should be on monday. monday's squats are 5 sets of 5 with a SET weight, the last set you should just barely be able to do the 5th rep, or not be able to do it at all. if you can only get 3 or 4 reps on the 5th set of the set weight, the following week you would use the same weight for all 5 sets and get the 5th rep this time. Don't be confused by all the sets he listed prior to 350 for 5sets of 5, those are all warmups. only after you manage to complete all 25 reps at the set weight do you move the weight up. Friday's squatting session should be just as you did, assuming the 400 pounds you were only able to just make the 5th rep.. if you complete that 5th rep, the following week you would add weight to each set building up to a new 5 rep maximum again. so basically, mondays squats are 5 sets of 5 with the same weight, the last set you should just barely make the 5th rep or not make it at all.. then when you do, increase weight the following week. friday's is building up to a 5rep maximum building the weight up by the same increments each set. if you get all 5 reps on the last set, then you can increase weight the following week. if not, keep the same weight until you complete every rep. sorry if this is confusing or unclear, and i'm sure if i'm wrong about anything, one of our higher powers will let us know, anyway if it was confusing it's because there's about 5 people being loud as hell right behind me and i can barely keep track of what i'm typing. hope this helps!

 

[Madcow2]

Check out this thread: http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=3989&st=0&p=69541&#entry69541

It's a 5x5 that I wrote up for a BBer. It might synthesize things for you a bit. It's based on exactly the same program in the stickies here (I believe I gave credit as a matter of fact). I also wrote it a long time ago for a single individual so if I typo or leave something out it is unintended, I just never proofed it thinking I'd be referencing it.

The only time you pyramid your weights is on the days where you are hitting a single set of 5 (1x5) or 3 (1x3) - I actually make it a soft pyramid rule. When I can get the whole volume in of 5x5 and 3x3 I do it but as I get closer to hitting a max triple or quintuple I lower the workload and just get to the weight (generally doubles on the way up or some such variant). EDIT: FYI I try not to cut volume during the initial phase and try to adjust to get them all in as the volume is most important. In the intensity phase, I'm more prone to cut the volume as the key is to hit the required weight.

It's the other days where you warm up to a working set weight and then handle it for 5x5.

You'll note the 3 distinct phases as the weeks go by, high volume/low intensity followed by a short deloading period then lower volume/high intensity. It's the body recovering from the accrued deficit created by the high volume over the initial weeks that is responsible for the gains - as you deload and curtail the volume your body recovers allowing for a peak overreach with heavy triples at the end.

This is the way good programs are structured. Basic bodybuilding stuff centers around supercompensation by going into the gym, beating yourself down with a shotgun of exercises aimed at a single body part, retreating to recover and then coming back a week later hoping you got stronger. One issue is that it takes longer than a single week for the body to recover from a workout so you are always running a deficit. Dual factor theory (the way the vast majority of non-BBer programs used around the world are setup) seeks to manage this deficit to drive and then provide room for the adaptation. Adaptation (beyond the novice) is not based on a single event but more on a sustained need over a period.

 

[Bob Smith]

I'm getting frusterated because I'm reading conflicting information here.

Its not conflicting as there are 3 different 5x5 workouts each week.
Monday: 5x5 with the same weight. Last set is very tough
Wednesday: 5x5 set weight with 70-85% of Mondays weight
Friday: 5x5 in pyramid fashion, last set you push for a new PR.

Along with the loading/deloading phases mentioned, a main factor in the effectiveness of the 5x5 program is the frequency of hitting the same bodypart. Each bodypart is worked 2-3x/wk.

 

[Grizzly]

im reading about it but i don't understand exactly how it works. you use 5 sets of 5 reps and move up by the same incriments each time. the last set should be nearly impossible? I don't know I don't get it. I know it has to do with working multiple body parts each day but I don't like the training split given. I'm very confused. I guess I will have to keep reading. If someone could please try to explain this to me, I would appreciate it.

What do you find wrong with the split given?

 

[AnimalMass]

How can you not understand this?....

"do 135 for 5, 185 for 5, 225 for 3, 275 for 2, 315 for 1, then 350 for 5 sets of 5. When successfull with all 25 reps at 350lbs, bump the weight up the next workout by 5 or 10lbs."

That isn't rocket science or exercise science or training theory or anything that anyone who uses English as a first language and has completed the 8th grade couldn't understand. He clearly states what to do as a warm up and then to do "350 for 5 sets of 5."

Maybe I'm missing something here? If you can't understand that, there's no way in hell you'd understand my DFHT thread, and absolutely no shot at ever understanding Angel Face's training theory thread.

Matt

 

[kenneth]

..

greetings AM, your tweaked 5x5 is coming along quite nicely for me.

 

[AnimalMass]

Glad to hear it bud.

Matt

 

[Bob Smith]

How can you not understand this?....

That isn't rocket science or exercise science or training theory or anything that anyone who uses English as a first language and has completed the 8th grade couldn't understand.

Maybe I'm missing something here? If you can't understand that, there's no way in hell you'd understand my DFHT thread, and absolutely no shot at ever understanding Angel Face's training theory thread.

Matt

LOL! Someone's a little cranky tonight!

Hows the Mrs comin along? You get the weights out to the garage and the room painted and baby-fied?

 

[AnimalMass]

Yep - have done. I guess I better take some pics and post them.

Matt

 

[GeaR_and_SauCe]

what you did is what you should do on friday if you follow the routine as is. what you did is, built up to a 5 rep max building up the weight by the same increments each time until you reached your 5th set which should be your 5 rep maximum. the example that you just quoted from john smith is how it should be on monday. monday's squats are 5 sets of 5 with a SET weight, the last set you should just barely be able to do the 5th rep, or not be able to do it at all. if you can only get 3 or 4 reps on the 5th set of the set weight, the following week you would use the same weight for all 5 sets and get the 5th rep this time. Don't be confused by all the sets he listed prior to 350 for 5sets of 5, those are all warmups. only after you manage to complete all 25 reps at the set weight do you move the weight up. Friday's squatting session should be just as you did, assuming the 400 pounds you were only able to just make the 5th rep.. if you complete that 5th rep, the following week you would add weight to each set building up to a new 5 rep maximum again. so basically, mondays squats are 5 sets of 5 with the same weight, the last set you should just barely make the 5th rep or not make it at all.. then when you do, increase weight the following week. friday's is building up to a 5rep maximum building the weight up by the same increments each set. if you get all 5 reps on the last set, then you can increase weight the following week. if not, keep the same weight until you complete every rep. sorry if this is confusing or unclear, and i'm sure if i'm wrong about anything, one of our higher powers will let us know, anyway if it was confusing it's because there's about 5 people being loud as hell right behind me and i can barely keep track of what i'm typing. hope this helps!

Ok this is the best explanation I have gotten so far. I see where I am missing the big point. 5 sets of 5 max during the week, all the same wieght, and then on friday you use the pyramid type scheme to try and increase the amount of weight you are pushing. Am I still wrong? I see why the split is neccissary for this and I would love to try it but I was wondering if you could change the excersizes. There are no bicept curls involved? Triceps rely only on pressing movements? Has anyone come up with a better split using the 5 x 5 method, because I would be really interested.