Spiking insulin levels for max gains

[Jayman]

Around the time you workout try spiking your insulin levels
Ex 100g before workout 70 during and 100 after...
Everybody is so scared of carbs these days. My opinion is that ppl need a lot less while sitting on their ass and a lot more while busting it at the gym. What do you guys think?

 

[mghoward74]

Why would you spike insulin levels again? Too much insulin means fat storage.

 

[Jayman]

Again? Do you mean after you workout?
It depends on your goal and bf% it's not too well suited for a fat guy but if your bulking and you don't have much fat around your lower back and abs show through a little then it's a great plan

 

[Jayman]

It's my understanding that after you workout is when you need it most. I usually burn through all my glycogen storage by the end of my workout

 

[Dr JIM]

Around the time you workout try spiking your insulin levels
Ex 100g before workout 70 during and 100 after...
Everybody is so scared of carbs these days. My opinion is that ppl need a lot less while sitting on their ass and a lot more while busting it at the gym. What do you guys think?

That's the best and safest means of spiking insulin levels by far but some of the unwanted effects, such as enhanced lipogenesis, can be minimized by mixing simple and complex carbs with a hydrolyzed complete protein such as whey. I would prefer a BCAA lucine in particular in this instance. (No the latter is NOT mandatory by any means BUT it may offer a few more theoretical advantages in preventing post wo catabolism compared to other AA)

How much, and when depends upon several factors such as the intensity of one''s wo, it's duration and to what extent glycogen stores are depleted

 

[Jayman]

Does it cause lipogenesis because of the rate your body metabolizes a carb during exercise? And I think I have read that mixing proteins and carbs slows the digetion of each. Is that why lipogenesis is minimized?

I always just assume a complete hydrolyzed protein is better than a bcaa. 50 g's of whey isolate has around 7 g's of each bcaa, give or take a gram, but that's still more than a single serving of the average bcaa powder.

Also one more question.. Why simple and complex? My PRE meal has around 100g from potatoes or rice usually then I mix around 75g of Karbolyn with whatever whey I have on hand. Then after... I sometimes eat a pop tart or an ice cream cone with some kind of meat/egg. sometimes I'll opt for a complex carb as well

When would a simple carb peri workout minimize fat storage?

 

[Docd187123]

I think "spiking" insulin levels is largely broscience and to get the beneficial effects of insulin on preventing MPB you only need to raise insulin 2-3x above fasting levels. Furthermore, by having a balanced meal an hour or two or even slightly longer before your workout ensures an adequate supply of AA, glucose and insulin for the duration of your workout assuming you workout 1-2hrs. I agree though many ppl are scared of carbs in general.


"However, while the theoretical basis behind spiking in- sulin post-workout is inherently sound, it remains ques- tionable as to whether benefits extend into practice. First and foremost, research has consistently shown that, in the presence of elevated plasma amino acids, the ef- fect of insulin elevation on net muscle protein balance plateaus within a range of 15–30 mU/L [45,46]; roughly 3–4 times normal fasting levels. This insulinogenic effect is easily accomplished with typical mixed meals, consid- ering that it takes approximately 1–2 hours for circulat- ing substrate levels to peak, and 3–6 hours (or more) for a complete return to basal levels depending on the size of a meal. For example, Capaldo et al. [47] examined various metabolic effects during a 5-hour period after ingesting a solid meal comprised of 75 g carbohydrate 37 g protein, and 17 g fat. This meal was able to raise insulin 3 times above fasting levels within 30 minutes of consumption. At the 1-hour mark, insulin was 5 times greater than fasting. At the 5-hour mark, insulin was still double the fasting levels. In another example, Power et al. [48] showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes approximately 50 minutes to cause blood amino acid levels to peak. Insulin concentrations peaked 40 minutes after ingestion, and remained at elevations seen to maximize net muscle protein balance (15-30 mU/L, or 104-208 pmol/L) for approximately 2 hours. The in- clusion of carbohydrate to this protein dose would cause insulin levels to peak higher and stay elevated even longer. Therefore, the recommendation for lifters to spike insulin post-exercise is somewhat trivial. The clas- sical post-exercise objective to quickly reverse catabolic processes to promote recovery and growth may only be applicable in the absence of a properly constructed pre- exercisemeal.

Moreover, there is evidence that the effect of protein breakdown on muscle protein accretion may be over- stated. Glynn et al. [49] found that the post-exercise anabolic response associated with combined protein and carbohydrate consumption was largely due to an eleva- tion in muscle protein synthesis with only a minor influ- ence from reduced muscle protein breakdown. These results were seen regardless of the extent of circulating insulin levels. Thus, it remains questionable as to what, if any, positive effects are realized with respect to muscle growth from spiking insulin after resistance training."

http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-10-5.pdf

 

[Jayman]

Good info.. But then why do guys get such great results by pinning insulin?
Also the examination 5 hours after a meal was during rest. Hormone levels are much different during physical activity.

anecdotally I actually started seeing my body get leaner and bigger after including carbs around my lifting sessions

 

[Docd187123]

Good info.. But then why do guys get such great results by pinning insulin?
Also the examination 5 hours after a meal was during rest. Hormone levels are much different during physical activity.

anecdotally I actually started seeing my body get leaner and bigger after including carbs around my lifting sessions

Normal physiological hormonal levels act much differently than supraphysiological levels like when pinning exogenous insulin.

Hormones do act differently when at rest vs training but the anabolic window for training as it's commonly referred to is not a small window around your training time. It is more like 24hrs meaning timing your carbs up to surround your training period is only beneficial if it allows you to work out harder. This is not a direct benefit and is not universal. Some ppl train better fasted or with minimal food and some the opposite. It cannot be generalized to "take 100g carbs pre, 70g intra, and 100g post workout".

 

[Tmisatix]

Yes, but you will either need to be low carb many hours pre workout, or fasted. For example:

You wake up around 6 AM, eat only fat and protein until your workout which should be 12 to anytime after this. Carbohydrate intake should be consumed post workout. Remember, protein still does spike insulin levels. It is through a different pathway though. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15800559

Protein does stimulate insulin, but also glucagon which controls it.

Another option is fasting before your workout. Consuming carbs either intra, or post, both.

This needs to be implemented for to work the best, but generally fasting increases insulin sensitivity.

I like to eat most of my carbohydrates around my workouts. This has worked the best.

 

[Docd187123]

Yes, but you will either need to be low carb many hours pre workout, or fasted. For example:

You wake up around 6 AM, eat only fat and protein until your workout which should be 12 to anytime after this. Carbohydrate intake should be consumed post workout. Remember, protein still does spike insulin levels. It is through a different pathway though. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15800559

Protein does stimulate insulin, but also glucagon which controls it.

Another option is fasting before your workout. Consuming carbs either intra, or post, both.

This needs to be implemented for to work the best, but generally fasting increases insulin sensitivity.

I like to eat most of my carbohydrates around my workouts. This has worked the best.

Are you replying to one of my posts or someone else's?

 

[Dr JIM]

^^^^

Post where the authors of the study you cited noted PROTEIN stimulates INSULIN!

The fact is "VERY LOW CARB / HIGH PROTEIN DIETS can actually INCREASE insulin resistance, and that's NOT GOOD from either a physiologic or medial perspective.

Moreover this study involved patients with TYPE II DIABETES whom are well established to have altered glucose metabolism.

Consequently studied of this nature should only rarely be applied to athletes!

 

[Jayman]

Imo the window is there because glycogen Is more likely to be stored in muscle tissue than as fat if eaten right after you workout. Aside from just spiking insulin for gains, you have to take into consideration the way glycogen acts

 

[Tmisatix]

^^^^

Post where the authors of the study you cited noted PROTEIN stimulates INSULIN!

The fact is "VERY LOW CARB / HIGH PROTEIN DIETS can actually INCREASE insulin resistance, and that's NOT GOOD from either a physiologic or medial perspective.

Moreover this study involved patients with TYPE II DIABETES whom are well established to have altered glucose metabolism.

Consequently studied of this nature should only rarely be applied to athletes!

Protein/carb had no real difference between insulin is what I am saying. I agree with you too. Low carb diets are not optimal. Getting a majority of your fats and protein requirements pre workout and then eating the bulk of carbohydrates post.

 

[Xlgx]

Protein/carb had no real difference between insulin is what I am saying. I agree with you too. Low carb diets are not optimal. Getting a majority of your fats and protein requirements pre workout and then eating the bulk of carbohydrates post.

So you are not a fan of having carbs during the day of work out including pre and intra in order to have the glycogen stores and energy to plow through the training session?

 

[Tmisatix]

So you are not a fan of having carbs during the day of work out including pre and intra in order to have the glycogen stores and energy to plow through the training session?

Yes and It's advice from John Meadows who Is one of my favorites for info.

 

[Dr JIM]

Protein/carb had no real difference between insulin is what I am saying. I agree with you too. Low carb diets are not optimal. Getting a majority of your fats and protein requirements pre workout and then eating the bulk of carbohydrates post.

Sorry but it's quiet obvious you still don't know what you are saying bc there is no comparison between carbs and proteins and their influence on insulin secretion!

Please elaborate on the "other pathway"by which proteins influence insulin

 

[Tmisatix]

Sorry but it's quiet obvious you still don't know what you are saying bc there is no comparison between carbs and proteins and their influence on insulin secretion!

Please elaborate on the "other pathway"by which proteins influence insulin

They both have different glycemic index . Protein lower than carbs, but still similar insulin

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6389060

 

[Dr JIM]

They both have different glycemic index . Protein lower than carbs, but still similar insulin

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6389060

Fella now it's clear you have absolutely no idea what your talking about!

The "glycemic index" is a numerical value assigned to different CARBOHYDRATES based upon how they effect serum glucose levels! Thus BY DEFINITION protein and fats don't have a "glycemic index"!

And incidentally the "pathway" by which this occurs is called GLYCOLYSIS!

Oh and once again utilizing studies conducted on DIABETIC patients as a baseline for your advice is absolutely fool hearty

 

[Docd187123]

Imo the window is there because glycogen Is more likely to be stored in muscle tissue than as fat if eaten right after you workout. Aside from just spiking insulin for gains, you have to take into consideration the way glycogen acts

Glycogen does not get stored as fat. Yes working out can speed up glycogen re-synthesis bc:

"This is in part due to an increase in the translocation of GLUT4 during glycogen depletion [23,24] thereby facilitating entry of glucose into the cell. In addition, there is an exercise-induced increase in the activity of glycogen synthase—the principle enzyme involved in promoting glycogen storage [25]. The combination of these factors facilitates the rapid uptake of glucose following an exercise bout, allowing glycogen to be replenished at an accelerated rate."

BUT, it's been shown that replenishing glycogen stored immediately after depletion is only beneficial for a narrow subset of endurance sports where you'd need to use those same muscles again. This does not happen in your typical weight training exercise.

Despite a sound theoretical basis, the practical significance of expeditiously repleting glycogen stores remains dubious. Without question, expediting glycogen resynthesis is important for a narrow subset of endurance sports where the duration between glycogen-depleting events is limited to less than approximately 8 hours [31]. Similar benefits could potentially be obtained by those who per- form two-a-day split resistance training bouts (i.e. morn- ing and evening) provided the same muscles will be worked during the respective sessions. However, for goals that are not specifically focused on the performance of multiple exercise bouts in the same day, the urgency of glycogen resynthesis is greatly diminished."

http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-10-5.pdf

So in short, it still does not matter if you time your carbohydrate intake around your workouts or not UNLESS it allows you to perform better in the gym but this is still an individualized benefit and has no direct impact on body composition.