Super T levels after adding HCG...

[Sonny]

This sounds like it is pretty common, but after 2 weeks on HCG, my levels were as follows:

Total T: 1249 (range = 241-821)
Free T: >52 (range = 9.5-43.0)

I'm still waiting on DHT and Estradiol. I was on Test Cyp for 100mg/week for 8 weeks and added in the HCG at 250 IU 2x/week. Up until the addition of HCG, I was seeing Total T levels around the 600-800 range depending on the number of days since the injection.

So, I'm gonna drop the Test Cyp to 80mg/week. As Swale has pointed out with other patients, I can say that I feel significantly better after the addition of HCG. I wasn't happy with the Test Cyp alone, but the addition of HCG has made a noticeable difference.

Sonny

 

[Matt Muscle]

This sounds like it is pretty common, but after 2 weeks on HCG, my levels were as follows:

Total T: 1249 (range = 241-821)
Free T: >52 (range = 9.5-43.0)

I'm still waiting on DHT and Estradiol. I was on Test Cyp for 100mg/week for 8 weeks and added in the HCG at 250 IU 2x/week. Up until the addition of HCG, I was seeing Total T levels around the 600-800 range depending on the number of days since the injection.

So, I'm gonna drop the Test Cyp to 80mg/week. As Swale has pointed out with other patients, I can say that I feel significantly better after the addition of HCG. I wasn't happy with the Test Cyp alone, but the addition of HCG has made a noticeable difference.

Sonny

Well sonny you had a good response to the hcg....at only 2 inj of 250ius 2x per week! looks like your boys are working...

 

[earthdog]

Sonny,

Do you do the HCG on the two days prior to your cyp injection as per Swale's protocol? If yes, then would you say that you feel better all week, or just around the days that you use hcg?

 

[Sonny]

earthdawg:

My current routine:

Monday - 250 IU of HCG
Tuesday - 250 IU of HCG
Wednesday - 100mg Test Cyp
Thursday -
Friday -
Saturday -
Sunday -

I've only been on HCG for about 3 weeks. I've been feeling better on it since week 2.

Sonny

 

[earthdog]

Would you say that you feel better the entire week? Would you say you feel pretty stable throughout the week?

 

[Sonny]

Ok, here are the full results.

Very interesting!

The addition of HCG:

1) Pushed my Total T over the upper limit
2) Pushed my Free T over the limit
3) Dropped my DHT back into the normal range
4) Raised my Estrogen by a moderate amount

Maybe the DHT test from before was a fluke, but after seeing these results, I'm not gonna worry about it now. I injected with 80mg of Test Cyp today. The reduction of Test Cyp from 100mg to 80mg should lower Total T, Free T, and E2.

Overall, this has been a nice step forward in this process.

Sonny

 

[earthdog]

Does anyone know, is it normal for HCG to lower DHT like that? Or, like Sonny suggests, could it just be a fluke?

Glad to hear things are looking up for you Sonny!

 

[Sonny]

earthdog: The DHT thing is a mystery, but the results kinda make sense. DHT is an aromatase inhibitor. With my high DHT levels last time, I had really low Estrogen. Now, DHT is in the ballpark, but my Estrogen has come up some. The super levels of T probably raised Estrogen some, too.

Swale: Does it look like I'm barking up the right tree in terms of adjustments. I talked to several members who saw the same thing with HCG (shot their T levels up too high), so they reduced their Test Cyp a little. One guy reduced his Test Cyp, but also spread his 500 IU/week of HCG over 4 days instead of 2. Are there any benefits to doing that?

Thanks, all!

Sonny

 

[earthdog]

DHT is an aromatase inhibitor.

I wasn't aware of that.

 

[Weatherlite]

Here's a good question...and one that will be hard to answer until we hear from lots of people who have been on HCG for a while and who have had to adjust their dosages of T and HCG a lot.

What made you feel better when you started HCG? What I mean is, could your better feeling be a result of you T going way over the top? Could it be from something else that the HCG does to you? Does anyone have any idea what causes this newfound good feeling?

 

[Sonny]

I don't think it's the higher levels of T. I've been there before and honestly, I felt like crap when my levels were that high...really agitated/anxious/depressed. Before starting Swale's protocol, I was on 400mg/e3w through my Endo...that had my levels super high during followed by a huge drop by week 3.

Concerning HCG, Swale mentioned this in his 'Recipe for Success':

Patients all report they feel dramatically better once the HCG regimen is initiated (and they were properly tuned up on testosterone before they started it). HCG, as a LH analog, increases the activity of the P450 SCC enzyme, which converts CHOL to pregnenolone. Thus all three hormonal pathways are stimulated in patients who may be either entirely, or very nearly, HPTA suppressed. It is my belief this may be a factor in the heightened sense of well-being my patients report throughout the weekfar in excess of what a minimal dose of HCG would produce by virtue of induced testosterone production.


Sonny

 

[earthdog]

Concerning HCG, Swale mentioned this in his 'Recipe for Success':

Patients all report they feel dramatically better once the HCG regimen is initiated (and they were properly tuned up on testosterone before they started it). HCG, as a LH analog, increases the activity of the P450 SCC enzyme, which converts CHOL to pregnenolone. Thus all three hormonal pathways are stimulated in patients who may be either entirely, or very nearly, HPTA suppressed. It is my belief this may be a factor in the heightened sense of well-being my patients report throughout the weekfar in excess of what a minimal dose of HCG would produce by virtue of induced testosterone production.

I've read that several times but I can't figure out what some of that stuff means. What is/are:

1. P450 SCC
2. CHOL (cholesterol?)
3. pregnenolone
4. all three hormonal pathways

 

[Sonny]

Sounds like we need some help from SWALE, the super-chemist.

Sonny

 

[freedomfighter]

Basicall by introducing HCG into the mix we're seeking to bring the body into as n ormal a state as possible. Since normally LH is present in the body adding HCG substitutes for it. So all the things that LH brought to our state of being(some of which is how we feel)is reinstated by HCG use.

1. P450 SCC = an enzme that converts CHOL into prednisolone(sp?)
2. CHOL (cholesterol?)
3. pregnenolone doesn't show up in Encarta, but I know Swale was refering to a hormone normally present in our bodies. HPTA suppression decreases its prescence.
4. all three hormonal pathways(Test,LH,prednisolone)

 

[earthdog]

FF, so it sounds like HCG brings 2 of the three pathways into play. I guess that's why Swale refers to it as a "wonderful hormone."

 

[SWALE]

The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme converts cholesterol (CHOL) into pregnenolone. Then pregenolone makes its way into the three hormonal pathways that begin with CHOL: the sex hormones, mineralcorticoids (i.e. aldosterone, which regulates hydration status) and glucocorticoids (i.e. cortisol, which modulates inflammatory response and blood sugar levels).

P450scc is affected by levels of LH and also ACTH. This makes sense, as, for instance, when sex hormone levels are low, the resultant increase in LH then provides more building blocks for the production of more sex hormones.

Realizing I could supprt all three pathways in HPTA-suppressed patients was a real breakthrough in my thinking. But I had to wait for another study to come out to verify my theory (that HCG indeed increases pregnenolone levels), and also what I had seen clinically in the guys who were already following my protocols.

 

[Sonny]

Thanks, Swale. Anything that increases cleavage is good in my book!

Sonny

 

[freedomfighter]

Well that clears that up.

 

[frankwhardy]

Ok, here are the full results.

Very interesting!

The addition of HCG:

1) Pushed my Total T over the upper limit
2) Pushed my Free T over the limit
3) Dropped my DHT back into the normal range
4) Raised my Estrogen by a moderate amount

Maybe the DHT test from before was a fluke, but after seeing these results, I'm not gonna worry about it now. I injected with 80mg of Test Cyp today. The reduction of Test Cyp from 100mg to 80mg should lower Total T, Free T, and E2.

Overall, this has been a nice step forward in this process.

Sonny

Has anyone been able to verify this possible ability of HCG to lower DHT? That would sure come in handy in my situation.
Frank

 

[Axl]

Great to see SWALE's back! There is one thing that still is not clear;Sonny sais that "DHT is an Aromatase Inhibitor".

I truly believe it is not. Here is why. I have added our beautiful steriod tree in annex. (On which you can also admire the 3 hormonal pathways, by the way). When you look at the upper left corner, you'll see that Testosterone converts in DHT (dihydrotestosterone) by means of the 5-alpha reductase enzyme.

Now, what does adding HCG in this hormonal pathway?
HCG, as a LH analog, increases the activity of the P450 SCC enzyme, which converts CHOL to pregnenolone (look at the steroid tree!!). All the rest in this pathway will increase too: amongst others DHEA and Androstenedione. A higher DHEA will result in a higher Estrone. Meantime higher levels of Androstenedione and androstenediol will increase total T. When all the androgen receptors are "full", the excess testosterone will convert to E2 by means of the Armomatase enzyme.
If the affinity of Testosterone is higher for the Aromatase than for 5-alpha reductase, your E2 will go up.. If the affinity is higher for 5-alpha reductase, your DHT will go up. It's quite simple.

So HCG is in NO WAY an aromatase inhibitor, because if it were, the DHT of Sonny would have skyrocketed after adding HCG....