Training to Failure?

[gr8whitetrukker]

Ive recently had an epiphany. Im looking to implement volume training with out failure worked in. Ive always trained to failure for as long as I can remember. It comes natural to me to train like that.

After some reading I wonder now if I have been compromising some gains doing it this way.

I read that maximum muscle contraction happens 3-5 reps short of momentary muscle failure. That going to failure is more or less a CNS issue. In other words not necessary for muscle hypertrophy.

Let me know what you guys think

 

[Xlgx]

I like more of strength approach for one compound movement in a three rep range for 5 sets of 1-8 reps. Followed by one or two auxiliary movements to failure first set between 6-12 reps and the second at a lower weight between 8-15 reps. Got the idea for this hybrid approach from Charles poliquin and milos Sarcev

 

[Skull]

Subbed I like where this is going. No need to go to it if its not needed. I guess the ol saying is correct. Sometimes more is less or less is more or...will hell you get the idea

 

[Docd187123]

You're right the going to failure isn't needed. You can progress with or without training to failure. Some people have tremendous success with that method training but I think it's not optimal for most. The sheer volume is going to fatigue you let alone what lifting to failure will do on it's own and when you're fatigued and form starts to fade is when injuries become more common. I personally don't train to failure, although my goals are strength and power related not size, and wouldn't recommend it for most.

Maximum muscular contractions will only really happen with true 1 rep maxes. These weights require the use of all available muscle to move the weight throughout the range of motion. Not all muscle fiber types will activate at the same time but it's the only way to truly use the most amount of muscle fibers available to you.

Going to failure certainly impacts the CNS and makes for more recovery needed. It will also train different metabolic pathways depending on the rep ranges and weights used. It can help train you to work through lactic acid buildup but so will a few sets of 20rep squats or some such exercise. Bottom line to me is it is definitely not needed, although some prefer it, and there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Im not talking about specific training routines. The thought that training to failure is what im talking about.

The stress hormone cortisol becomes active when you train to failure. Cortisol lowers protein synthesis and prevents the rebuilding process from getting started.

The idea to the contrary would be train in a manner that allows you to place ample stress on the muscle via volume without going to failure.

 

[kawilt]

I'm not a BB per say, but I've tried both way's over the years and found that in my case, less does more.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

I been thinking about it.

It seems to me those bodybuilders who can succeed at training to failure have a superior CNS and react better to it. What else could it mean?

The problem training volume style is when is enough? Its not literally more sets is better otherwise 50 sets would be better than 40 and so on so on. You cant just do 40 sets of biceps and grow lol. Thats too damn much. Why? I dont know. But i believe it

 

[Demondosage]

90% of bodybuilders want longer and easier workouts. I say make them briefer and go to fucking war!!

 

[Demondosage]

On a real note, yes I think training short of failure is a good idea sometimes as a deload and give yourself a break. You may grow from the recovery aspect of it all, but not from the training aspect. You will get results because you've backed off, but sometimes volume isn't the best option either. What most bodybuilders will do is more volume to make up for no reps to failure, and in the end it's a wash. You're better off to cut volume lower, and stop short of failure, do this for about a month. When you get back to training with intensity you'll be smashing personal bests again and growing like a damn weed.

 

[MindlessWork]

90% of bodybuilders want longer and easier workouts. I say make them briefer and go to fucking war!!

Only great way to go about it IMO.

 

[xgunx]

By training to failure do you mean, to the point that you will be sore for a few day or just cant do anymore, or both?

I was thinking on starting a thread like this but this one is looking good.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Failure: training to a point of absolute momentary failure

 

[kawilt]

Can't do any more. Need a spotter. Muscle fails.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Im glad to see @Demondosage in here. A heavy hitter on meso. I respect his opinion.

The point is since volume has no clearly defined parameters how much is too much?

 

[Demondosage]

The thing is a muscle grows from a stimulus and a new stress. The muscle doesn't say "Well hell, he's only given me one set so I'm not going to respond!!" It doesn't matter whether it was 1 set, 2 sets, or 6 sets. But sooooooooo many guys walk into the gym with this huge workout planned out in their minds; They're going to start with this, and 4 sets of that, and then 3 sets of this, and then 5 sets of that, and they are going to spend about 2 hours hitting every little angle and exercise to trash the muscle. You know what they're doing? They're holding back, they are bullshitting!! After some small talk, mindless set after set, and being noticed in their tanktop, they've convinced themselves they've had a great workout.

But what if you only had 1 set per exercise to get everything you were going to get? There was no holding back. If someone was to put a gun to your head and tell you to get another rep, you'd do it. It's the kind of set that if someone had a knife to your kids throat and said if you don't do another rep I'm gonna cut him. Now you're living brother, now your lost in the moment and now you're training for real!!!

Stopping short of failure and going on, and on, and on, and on, and on, yeah you might recover a LITTLE better, but what if there was another way to recover while smashing the shit out some weights? Lower your volume and stop going to the gym so much. Cut training back to 2-3x/wk, but when you're in there it's all out war. I guarantee after 30-40 minutes of training like that, you'll be good. 20-30 sec rest between exercises, all out intensity, and high intensity principles such as rest pause training, partials, superslow reps, static holds, negative only reps, you'll grow AND recover

 

[Demondosage]

Look at Dorian Yates style training bro, he did a light warmup, moderate warmup, and heavy warmup. But his working sets were usually just 1 all out brutal set!!

Here is an example of a chest workout I would do;

Incline bench press- 135/12 (light warmup)
225/8- Moderate warmup
275/3- Heavy warmup
290/15 (290/11 straight through, rest pause 15 seconds + 3, rest pause another 15 sec + 1 w/ spot)

flat db flys- 40's/12 (light warmup
50's/8 (moderate warmup)
75/12, followed by deep extreme stretch for 1 minute)

Hammer strength incline press- 4 plates/side x 10 reps (already warmed up, going for new personal best with 1 single set)

DONE!!!! I repeat....DONE. In and out of the gym in 30 minutes easy

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Im well versed in high intensity principles. Im an old school guy. Brought up in the arthur jones school of thought and brought to popularity by mentzer then yates and others later on. Ive always followed this. Its NOT infallible.

The idea of continuous progressive overload is incorrect. A certain volume must be obtained.

Mentzer advocated in his latest HIT protocol only 4 sets total per workout! That is the message of HIT. Do as little as necessary for growth. I find this silly. It cant work like that

 

[Demondosage]

Im well versed in high intensity principles. Im an old school guy. Brought up in the arthur jones school of thought and brought to popularity by mentzer then yates and others later on. Ive always followed this. Its NOT infallible.

The idea of continuous progressive overload is incorrect. A certain volume must be obtained.

Mentzer advocated in his latest HIT protocol only 4 sets total per workout! That is the message of HIT. Do as little as necessary for growth. I find this silly. It cant work like that

yea man, I'm a huge follower of Jones, Mentzer brothers, Viator and Coe. It's just what I respond to best. I had to keep an open mind to it all, but it definitely works for me anyways. But no way a newer trainee could do it, he just doesn't have the intensity and level of muscular control and contraction for it

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

The problem with heavy duty is you cannot continuously progressive overload. Its impossible.

The other problem is if you lack intensity on any given day your workout is a complete fail. The very premise of HIT is as you said put a gun to your head and you couldn't do one more rep. Were men of the same block here DD.

I followed mentzers rules of HIT which had me doing
Nautilus pullover
Superset
palms up pulldowns

Then

Dumbbell flyes
Superset
incline bench

Thats the whole workout straight from mentzers HIT. 4 SETS complete and utter failure. Yes I did have tremendous results but...it does not last forever

 

[Demondosage]

The problem with heavy duty is you cannot continuously progressive overload. Its impossible.

The other problem is if you lack intensity on any given day your workout is a complete fail. The very premise of HIT is as you said put a gun to your head and you couldn't do one more rep. Were men of the same block here DD.

I followed mentzers rules of HIT which had me doing
Nautilus pullover
Superset
palms up pulldowns

Then

Dumbbell flyes
Superset
incline bench

Thats the whole workout straight from mentzers HIT. 4 SETS complete and utter failure. Yes I did have tremendous results but...it does not last forever

No, you're absolutely right. This is when I increase volume myself and do exactly what you're talking about. I just didn't know you'd dabbled with HIT before which was why I was suggesting it, I thought you always did volume. Yea man, I am with you on that, after 6-8 wks of High intensity your body is beat up pretty bad. Then I do something deload like or a little more volume and definitely stop short of failure. You stand correct friend. When you ask how much volume though, I think it all depends on the individual. You know when you're recovered or not. If you did 8 sets of chest yesterday, and struggled getting out of bed today, next time I'd do 5, and so on.