What do you guys think of this PCT protocol (bad sides from Clomid)

[Gronk87]

So i'm gonna be running my second cycle as soon as I get under 10% bf which should be in roughly 6 weeks. It is just going to be a basic 600/wk test E and going to switch to test prop for the last 3 weeks to start PCT sooner. I had horrible mental sides from Clomid last time around, BUT I dont feel comfortable leaving any stones unturned for recovery. What do you guys think of this PCT plan where I only use clomid for one week?

Throughout cycle: HCG 500/wk
PCT week 1:
Clomid 50 ed
Nolva 40 ed

Week 2
Nolva 40 ed

Weeks 3+4
Nolva 20 ED

this way I still get the benefits of dual serms for recovery but I avoid being on Clomid for that long... it has some nasty effects on me. Is this worth doing or is it stupid and should I just go Nolva only?

 

[Volley_Fire]

That will probably work fine, I had considered something similar. I am in my 3rd week of PCT right now, and it is going MUCH smoother than my prior two PCTs because I decided to ditch clomid. Running Toremifene and Nolva this time around. Only side effects are a little bit of acne and some intermittent lethargy, but NONE of the terrible mental sides of clomid.

 

[Gronk87]

That will probably work fine, I had considered something similar. I am in my 3rd week of PCT right now, and it is going MUCH smoother than my prior two PCTs because I decided to ditch clomid. Running Toremifene and Nolva this time around. Only side effects are a little bit of acne and some intermittent lethargy, but NONE of the terrible mental sides of clomid.

havent done much reading on the torem, how is it different from nolva and clomid?

 

[Volley_Fire]

Torem is much more closely related to nolva than clomid, both chemically and in its mode of action. There is less information available on torem being used for PCT than nolva or clomid, but it makes my balls get pretty big which is a good sign.

 

[master.on]

ditch clomid
use nolva instead
10 mg ED would be enough
20 mg only if you're paranoid about gyno

 

[eryximachus]

Clomid has decades of research backing it, much of it recent with the single-isomer version known as Androxal that is under clinical trials now (or at least was). It is regularly used by physicians to treat male infertility. Nolvadex has nowhere near this level of research supporting its use. It is inferior to Clomid in every conceivable fashion.

The reality is you feel like shit after a steroid cycle. You will feel like shit regardless of the drugs you use. Clomid should be the mainstay of every PCT.

Ignore comments about Torem. It is patented, and unless you are spending a fortune at the pharmacy, chances are it is bunk or nolvadex. People who praise it are just responding to placebo.

As is said constantly here, pharma quality products are necessary. If you don't know where to find them, PM me.

 

[Dr JIM]

Clomid has decades of research backing it, much of it recent with the single-isomer version known as Androxal that is under clinical trials now (or at least was). It is regularly used by physicians to treat male infertility. Nolvadex has nowhere near this level of research supporting its use. It is inferior to Clomid in every conceivable fashion.

The reality is you feel like shit after a steroid cycle. You will feel like shit regardless of the drugs you use. Clomid should be the mainstay of every PCT.

Ignore comments about Torem. It is patented, and unless you are spending a fortune at the pharmacy, chances are it is bunk or nolvadex. People who praise it are just responding to placebo.

As is said constantly here, pharma quality products are necessary. If you don't know where to find them, PM me.

I concur with the objective nature of your post, bc CLOMID should be considered the mainstay of PCT for those reasons you highlighted.

However some mates just can't tolerate the adverse effects of CLOMID at "therapeutic PCT dosages" (that's somewhere bt 10-20% of folk IME) the next best option is the use of CLOMID at a lower dose combined with TAMOXIFEN or TAMOXIFEN alone, IME.

Finally post PCT labs remain the only means of KNOWING if HTPA recovery was a successful endeavor, a point of emphasis I suspect you're fully aware of.

Jim

 

[Gronk87]

I concur with the objective nature of your post, bc CLOMID should be considered the mainstay of PCT for those reasons you highlighted.

However some mates just can't tolerate the adverse effects of CLOMID at "therapeutic PCT dosages" (that's somewhere bt 10-20% of folk IME) the next best option is the use of CLOMID at a lower dose combined with TAMOXIFEN or TAMOXIFEN alone, IME.

Finally post PCT labs remain the only means of KNOWING if HTPA recovery was a successful endeavor, a point of emphasis I suspect you're fully aware of.

Jim

thanks for the input guys, yes my last PCT was successful after stopping clomid halfway through. I understand feeling down post cycle, however I without question noticed a huge huge improvement in my mental state after taking out the clomid. I could barely function on the stuff, had a few days where I didnt get out of bed until 4pm because of the depressive thoughts etc. And I am normally a stable person.

 

[Dr JIM]

Those with depression NEED more sSTABILITY in their lives and are much better off avoiding the cyclical physiologic changes that are an INEVITABLE part of running AAS!!!

Oh and your posts tell another story DaveD, and are not consistent with a "normally a stable person" IME.

However denial is a significant problem for the depressed patient and such comments are to be expected.

 

[G2Ready]

@Dr JIM is there any benefit to getting BW while still on serms towards end of pct, is there any way to tell if longer is needed by LH, FSH, or T readings? Or is time better spent just waiting 6 weeks after ending pct?

 

[Dr JIM]

@Dr JIM is there any benefit to getting BW while still on serms towards end of pct, is there any way to tell if longer is needed by LH, FSH, or T readings? Or is time better spent just waiting 6 weeks after ending pct?

Good question.

But bc the SERM mediated effects on gonadotropins and androgens can be difficult to differentiate from that which is of an endogenous origin it's best to wait.

How long is that wait? Well that's also another reason why I prefer CLOMID over TAMO and as a single agent. The half life of these drugs

Thus is Clomid is used alone and at roughly 50mg per day a two week "clearance" is more than adequate IME

BUT much of this matters little if the cyclist did NOT draw baseline pre-cycle BW for comparison! To that end as one can imagine an overshoot or what some call "rebound"
(an instance where LH/FSH and TT values exceed ones pre-cycle baseline during PCT)
should be deemed a SERM mediated effect.

 

[G2Ready]

Wow a 2 week "clearance" with a half life of 5 days? I thought Clomid and Tamo shared similar half lifes, any insight or experience with Tamo "clearance" rate to compare?

 

[Dr JIM]

Wow a 2 week "clearance" with a half life of 5 days? I thought Clomid and Tamo shared similar half lifes, any insight or experience with Tamo "clearance" rate to compare?

Thus if Clomid is used alone and at roughly 50mg per day a two week "clearance" is more than adequate IME

.

- How many isomers mediate the effects of Clomid ?

- Which isomer is believed to be primarily responsible for many of Clomids adverse effects?

- Which isomer is believed to mediate the desired effects of "PCT"?

- What is the half life of the latter ?

- What isomer is has been pending FDA approval for YEARS?

Finally the reason I placed "clearance" in quotation marks is to highlight the difference
bt ELIMINATION (often referred to as terminal elimination for oral agents) of a drug such as Clomid and reaching a concentration that is no longer sufficient to maintain the initial therapeutic response. The latter being referred to as therapeutic "clearance".

 

[G2Ready]

2 isomers
enclomiphene 62%
and zuclomiphene 38%

Zuclomiphene been known to cause estro sides in men

We are after Enclomiphene for pct

Enclomiphene "clearance" 24 hours?
Zuclomiphene "clearance" month or longer?


Enclomiphene for fda approval for men?

For real thanks for that

 

[Dr JIM]

2 isomers
enclomiphene 62%
and zuclomiphene 38%

Zuclomiphene been known to cause estro sides in men

We are after Enclomiphene for pct

Enclomiphene "clearance" 24 hours?
Zuclomiphene "clearance" month or longer?


Enclomiphene for fda approval for men?

For real thanks for that

Sure I've had folk who simply dont recover as expected, but there's almost always OTHER factors involved that were either not mentioned or overlooked.

Like oh sorry Doc I thougt i told you I blasted and cruised for ten years prior OR ive been on Deca of two years but a "low dosage" of ONLY 200mg/wk OR ok I'm sorry I was scared the insurance company would deny coverage so I listed my age as 31 rather than 48, OR one of my fav's; yea I just couldn't stand the notion of losing "my gains so I continued TRT during PCT, OR damn will 400mg QD of Clomid and 100MG of Tamo effect the post PCT interval LMAO, etc etc

You have no idea how skewed the "data" is on PED forums can become and these are the same "bro's" who believe this or that are needed for effective PCT bc of their "experiences".

In many ways I suspect these are some of the reasons Doc Scally suggests cyclists use Clomid and Tamo, WORST CASE SCENARIOS , and to that end I certainly agree.

 

[Dr JIM]

Kudos to you @G2Ready for searching the net for the answers. While such an approach is despised by those who prefer to be spoon fed "answers", the meaningful recital of data as a means to an ends is one mechanism by which folk remember that which they have read and increases the probability of LEARNING IME

 

[ziopane]

try to use HCG on cycle, i had problems too with clomid and using HCG i have a way better transition in pct.