I am running A Dbol and test cycle, dbol first 50mg e.d. for first 4 weeks and 500mg of test Enanthate for 1 - 10 weeks. I am taking .5mg of armidex, question is should i also take nolva and how much clen should I take following. I had no problems with gyno last cycle and that was a deca/dbol cycle for 10 weeks.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
what do you think
- Thread starter mashey
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joe shmoe
New Member
you should be fine on just the arimi alone. however, if gyno does come about, drop 40mg of nolva ED for 3 days. this should stop it. i only take nolva if i feel the arimi isnt enough.
clen? for what purpose?
have a nice day
clen? for what purpose?
have a nice day
HHH
New Member
joe shmoe said:
Ditto to Joe. Also wondering about the Clen??
What purpose?? Could you be useing it to help the
Resepter sites??
HHH
I like Einstein's PCT protacol. While on - .25 adex ED, 10 mg nolva Ed, if using tren or deca - add 200-300mg b6. This way you basically ensure yourself you won't get gyno and also keeps your blood pressure in check. Also won't reduce igf-1 or lower HDL. Post cycle - day 1 - 30 - .25 adex ED, nolva 20 mg ED amd clomid 100mg ED. I've never recovered so quickly and didn't use hcg either. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
I have read somewhere that taking too much arimidex during a cycle will reduce gains...basically, the body needs estrogen to make good strong gains, arimidex competes for the enzyme that breaks down the test into estrogen and why it works as an anti-estrogen, but since there is no estrogen in your system, it reduces gains...just a tidbit I thought I would throw in...
also it is funny that the clen was brought up and everyone was asking why, I just read this excerpt from a site about clen and pct...this is the only place I have seen this but any comments would be great:
"The second problem is the clearly more relevant and probably the more decisive factor for the potentially considerable performance loss of the athletes. As we know, steroids have a highly anticatabolic effect by reducing the catabolic effect of the body's own hormone, cortisone. When taking steroids, the steroid molecules block the cortisone receptors so that the cortisone produced by the adrenal gland cannot attach to the receptors, thus remaining for the most part deactivated. The body reacts by producing additional cortisone receptors so that, in the meantime, the unusually high amount of cortisone receptors in the blood can finally do their job. This again is not very serious as long as the athlete continues to take the steroids as planned. However, when the steroid regime is terminated the cortisone receptors are suddenly freed and the large quantity of free cortisone molecules in the blood now know exactly what to do. They rush to the cortisone receptors to form a molecule/receptor complex and transmit to the muscle cell the following message which is so unpleasant for the athlete: break down amino acids. These leave the muscle cell and enter the blood where they are transformed into glucose or blood sugar. The consequence of this process has already been described in another chapter. The athlete's second problem, in addition to increasing the endogenous testosterone production, is to lower the cortisone level to an acceptable level. As the reader knows, this goal is achievable to a high extent. In the following we will describe a sensible, step-by-step approach to interrupt the steroid regime, and the time after. Particular attention will be paid to the two problematic factors described in detail. We want to, however, explicitly emphasize that this information is no guarantee to protect the athlete from a loss of performance."
"6.) All this, however, helps only if the athlete is able to mostly block out the catabolic effect of the increased cortisone level. A compound which, because of its distinct anticatabolic effect, fulfills this requirement is the beta-2 sympathomimetic, Clenbuterol. ***Clenbuterol successfully blocks the cortisone receptors so that the athlete is usually able to maintain a large portion of the strength and muscle mass built up by the steroids.*** The intake of Clenbuterol begins directly at the end of the steroid therapy and continues over 8-10 weeks (see also Clenbuterol). Another compound of the group of sympaticomimetics which also has an anticatabolic effect (but less pronounced than Clenbuterol) is Ephedrine. Probably the most suitable drug in this situation is a preparation which in school medicine is used in the treatment of the Cushing's syndrome, a hyperfunction of the adrenal glands which causes the body to produce too much cortisone. Those who have read this book carefully will know which drug is meant: Cytadren. Since it reduces the cortisone level extremely well athletes usually take it directly after completion of a steroid treatment (see also Cytadren). Several athletes take thyroid hormones in this phase since they have an anabolic effect when taken in small dosages and for not excessively long intake intervals. Their effect can be clearly increased by the anticatabolic effect of Clenbuterol which explains why this combination is used during the phase of discontinuance. The use of growth hormone also makes sense since it has a strong anticatabolic/anabolic effect. You can forget Ornithin and Arginin which supposedly increase the realising of GH, because they are ineffective. Distance yourself from the thought that pharmaceutically improved muscle mass can be maintained with "natural methods.""
Any comments about the clen as a PCT?
also it is funny that the clen was brought up and everyone was asking why, I just read this excerpt from a site about clen and pct...this is the only place I have seen this but any comments would be great:
"The second problem is the clearly more relevant and probably the more decisive factor for the potentially considerable performance loss of the athletes. As we know, steroids have a highly anticatabolic effect by reducing the catabolic effect of the body's own hormone, cortisone. When taking steroids, the steroid molecules block the cortisone receptors so that the cortisone produced by the adrenal gland cannot attach to the receptors, thus remaining for the most part deactivated. The body reacts by producing additional cortisone receptors so that, in the meantime, the unusually high amount of cortisone receptors in the blood can finally do their job. This again is not very serious as long as the athlete continues to take the steroids as planned. However, when the steroid regime is terminated the cortisone receptors are suddenly freed and the large quantity of free cortisone molecules in the blood now know exactly what to do. They rush to the cortisone receptors to form a molecule/receptor complex and transmit to the muscle cell the following message which is so unpleasant for the athlete: break down amino acids. These leave the muscle cell and enter the blood where they are transformed into glucose or blood sugar. The consequence of this process has already been described in another chapter. The athlete's second problem, in addition to increasing the endogenous testosterone production, is to lower the cortisone level to an acceptable level. As the reader knows, this goal is achievable to a high extent. In the following we will describe a sensible, step-by-step approach to interrupt the steroid regime, and the time after. Particular attention will be paid to the two problematic factors described in detail. We want to, however, explicitly emphasize that this information is no guarantee to protect the athlete from a loss of performance."
"6.) All this, however, helps only if the athlete is able to mostly block out the catabolic effect of the increased cortisone level. A compound which, because of its distinct anticatabolic effect, fulfills this requirement is the beta-2 sympathomimetic, Clenbuterol. ***Clenbuterol successfully blocks the cortisone receptors so that the athlete is usually able to maintain a large portion of the strength and muscle mass built up by the steroids.*** The intake of Clenbuterol begins directly at the end of the steroid therapy and continues over 8-10 weeks (see also Clenbuterol). Another compound of the group of sympaticomimetics which also has an anticatabolic effect (but less pronounced than Clenbuterol) is Ephedrine. Probably the most suitable drug in this situation is a preparation which in school medicine is used in the treatment of the Cushing's syndrome, a hyperfunction of the adrenal glands which causes the body to produce too much cortisone. Those who have read this book carefully will know which drug is meant: Cytadren. Since it reduces the cortisone level extremely well athletes usually take it directly after completion of a steroid treatment (see also Cytadren). Several athletes take thyroid hormones in this phase since they have an anabolic effect when taken in small dosages and for not excessively long intake intervals. Their effect can be clearly increased by the anticatabolic effect of Clenbuterol which explains why this combination is used during the phase of discontinuance. The use of growth hormone also makes sense since it has a strong anticatabolic/anabolic effect. You can forget Ornithin and Arginin which supposedly increase the realising of GH, because they are ineffective. Distance yourself from the thought that pharmaceutically improved muscle mass can be maintained with "natural methods.""
Any comments about the clen as a PCT?
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Adex in no way blocks ALL estrogen! Simply not so. If it were, you could use it effectivly to stop prog/prolactin gyno......estrogen is required for gyno sides. Many people use adex and still get gyno sides. There has never been any proof anti-E's will hinder gains either. They actually make it safer and in my opinion you get greater gains if igf-1 levels remain normal.SikFuk! said:
Biggriz said:
"
Anastrozole operates by blocking the aromatase enzyme, the primary enzyme for the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. A steroid that is altered by this enzyme is referred to as an aromatizing steroid, and such steroids can cause estrogen build-up. This has several potential side-effects such as water retention, fat gain and lets not forget gynocomastia (the growth of breast tissue in men). To prevent such effects anti-aromatase products can be used. Often times during a cycle most will want to allow for some estrogen, since it heavily promotes strength and gains as well (increases GH, upgrades the androgen receptor, improves glucose utilization). These people will generally opt for an estrogen receptor antagonist such as Nolvadex (tamoxifen) or Clomid (Clomiphene). These products do not stop the formation of estrogen, but stop the estrogen from exerting its effects by competitively taking up the receptors for this hormone. This allows them to stop any problems dead in their tracks, acting very fast, but upon discontinuation allowing for immediate influx of estrogen again as well. This has the benefit that they can be used as soon as problems arise, and discontinued when they subside, thereby only reducing estrogen-mediated gains for the time-span of the occurring problem (mostly gyno). Aromatase blockers like arimidex and proviron on the other hand are more useful for those seeking to eliminate estrogen from a cycle of aromatizable steroids all together. People who are willing to settle for slower gains, in an attempt to stay lean throughout, or for those who are truly sensitive to estrogen and do not want to take the risk of problems occurring. And arimidex is the clear weapon of choice here, at least to those who can afford it.
Things one needs to note while using arimidex is that the benefits of estrogen become non-existent as well. First of all that means gains can be drastically reduced. They will be leaner and more qualitative, but they will nonetheless be seriously reduced. A second problem is that estrogen seems to have a positive effect on cholesterol levels. Since estrogen is reduced, the use of arimidex may have a profound impact on HDL to LDL ratio's in your cholesterol profile. In this aspect the use of Nolvadex is more user-friendly, because despite its anti-estrogenic effects in most tissues, it seems to exert positive estrogenic effects in the liver and promote a better cholesterol profile."
Any thoughts? I have not done extensive research into A-Dex so I am not sure if others are saying the same thing...
All I can say is what has been most effective for me and my clients, I simply don't beleive nor have I seen any diminished gains while using BOTH adex and nolva during a cycle. Waiting for sides to occur BEFORE using either of the above is rediculous. We can avoid 99.9% of all sides and still get great gains while using A & N. And be much more healthy while on to boot. Shit I use adex during PCT also, with nolva & clomid and recover extremely quick ( keep gains).We can have our cake, and eat it too!SikFuk! said:
Hey bro, just trying to tell ya what I've done and seen in the real world. There's many on this board that know more than I, but I think I've got this one totally covered, and a few "elite" athletes agree with me.SikFuk! said:
All I'm asking is that you give it a try and see the results firsthand. There are tons of opinions about PCT, someone once said you could recover fully just using creatine and I believe this to be true...but what about the muscle lost during this recovery period? I would NEVER do another cycle if I didn't keep just about ALL of my gains, period. With the protocal I described earlier I and many others have done just that.
Good luck bro!
Biggriz said:
I def appreciate the info! I do have a question though...you use creatine during your pct as well? That is something I have never heard before, do you know how that works to increase test production and recovery? I know creatine pretty well and how it works and I can't see how it would help with recovering endogenous test production...
VDC
New Member
I admit that too much arimidex can stop all aromatisation,,,but when dosed properly there will be plenty of estrogen for calcium retention and the other benefits it brings,,,BTW proviron doesn't do squat for me in preventing gyno which I am prone towards,,,Its because I tried to rely on Proviron and clomid on my first cycle for anti-e's that I carry a lump under my left breast,,,As far as I know creatine doesn't help restore natural Test production,,,VDC
