whats more important- amount of T or Testrogen estrogen ratio

[masterpp]

pretty much explains itself. For muscle tone (not body bulding just regular life) and well being, what is more important, your amount and levels of testosterone, or the amount of testosterone compared to estrogen. im just trying to improve my mood and body a little, so was considering going on DIm, as opposed to TRT, which i see as a never ending circle.

cheers

 

[greyowl]

pretty much explains itself. For muscle tone (not body bulding just regular life) and well being, what is more important, your amount and levels of testosterone, or the amount of testosterone compared to estrogen. im just trying to improve my mood and body a little, so was considering going on DIm, as opposed to TRT, which i see as a never ending circle.

cheers

This is a very intelligent question.

My own experience:

I was diagnosed as hypergonadal in the mid 1990s and was given relatively high doses of andriol. My T levels shot up and my sex drive did too, but that was about it.

The next doc I saw noted that my e levels were up at the same time as my t levels were down. He theorized that my HTP (sp?) axis was fucked up because the checkpoints in the system which monitor and adjust my hormone levels were giving misreadings. So we decided to try to re-set the system by putting me on a short cycle of arimidex. Ten weeks later everything was normal again, I was re-energized, and my hormone levels have stayed that way ever since.

So, I would say that adjusting the underlying balance of of my t and e levels (and other hormones too) proved to be more improtant than increasing the absolute numbers for my t level alone.

BTW, based on my experience with TRT, I also agree with you that it can be a never-ending circle and that it should be a last resort after exhausting less invasive ways of modulating hormone levels through such strategies as diet, exercise, and supplements whose clinical effectiveness have been proven in double-blind studies (e.g. DIM).

 

[HeadDoc]

I agree. HRT is a never ending monitor. Many men and women who could benefit are not as detail oriented or will give up too soon. I went thru a year of supplements, prohormones, serm, and AI's before starting on exogenous test. That being said, I would never stop. Perhaps if I just could no longer afford the hgh, I would give that up.

 

[pmgamer18]

This is a very intelligent question.

My own experience:

I was diagnosed as hypergonadal in the mid 1990s and was given relatively high doses of andriol. My T levels shot up and my sex drive did too, but that was about it.

The next doc I saw noted that my e levels were up at the same time as my t levels were down. He theorized that my HTTP (sp?) axis was fucked up because the checkpoints in the system which monitor and adjust my hormone levels were giving misreadings. So we decided to try to re-set the system by putting me on a short cycle of arimidex. Ten weeks later everything was normal again, I was re-energized, and my hormone levels have stayed that way ever since.

So, I would say that adjusting the underlying balance of of my t and e levels (and other hormones too) proved to be more improtant than increasing the absolute numbers for my t level alone.

BTW, based on my experience with TRT, I also agree with you that it can be a never-ending circle and that it should be a last resort after exhausting less invasive ways of modulating hormone levels through such strategies as diet, exercise, and supplements whose clinical effectiveness have been proven in double-blind studies (e.g. DIM).

I think this link proves what you saying.
http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm
Phil

 

[greyowl]

I think this link proves what you saying.
http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm
Phil

Good snag Phil, that's exactly what I'm referring to.

 

[masterpp]

awesome responses guys- thanks but need a little more help

awesome response lads. i think i get what your saying. i really dont want to be getting on the TRT band waggon if i dont have to. i was on it for a while, but the whole atrophy thing, and the bother of having to go on HCG- which u cant seem to get in the UK- makes TRT seem like a never ending process.

In a word could you advise me. I have the body of a pretty typical hypergonadal block. fatty chest but skinny limbs, and i want to get a more typically masculainised. in a word can i improve just by lowering estrogen. i never get morning wood and i dont have mucbh upper body strengh.

but im conserned that my low levels of T will be too low even if i take dim.

any thoughts- ps thanks for all the help

 

[pmgamer18]

I don't like to tell someone to take anything to lower E2 unless they get a blood test. But one guy Emailed me he lives in the Bahamas he said he felt he had Low T. I asked him if he does drinks or does drugs. He got back to me saying he is a health nut and drinks a lot of soy milk. I asked him why he feels he has low T and he told me he has ED and can't reach an orgasm when he takes a pill to get it up. I told him the soy milk is bad and could raise his E2 levels to try taking some Indolplex/DIM if a test shows he is high. He told me he can't get a blood test for low T or high E2 in the Bahamas. So I told him to try the Indolplex/DIM and see if his morning wood comes back in a week taking one pill of Indolplex/DIM he told me he got his morning wood back and had stopped drinking the soy milk. He said he and his wife had a good time last night for the first time in a long time. The last time I talked to him he was not taking the indolplex/DIM anymore and now feels fine. So just goes to show you. I say go and try it and went you get your morning wood back this means you E2 came down and you had high E2. But if the wood goes away this means you went to low and you need to stop taking the Indolplex/DIM until the wood comes back then go back on it but take half a pill keep doing this until you find the right dose.
Here is a link to the Indolplex/DIM I use.
http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html
And try taking some TMG with it this helps keep you Total E down.
http://www.myvitanet.com/tmgtr75120ca.html
You may find that you will not need to take this all the time because your not on TRT.
Phil

 

[HeadDoc]

note that the study sited was run for 10 weeks on males 12-22. The authors caution about long term validity of the results. Suppose you went the arimidex only route. You would still have to monitor the same hormones you would monitor on trt. If you shut down the estrogen entirely, you could cause osteoporosis. Most of us guys value the virilization that the hormones bring to us. It makes the hassles of maintaining it worthwhile.

 

[greyowl]

note that the study sited was run for 10 weeks on males 12-22. The authors caution about long term validity of the results. Suppose you went the arimidex only route. You would still have to monitor the same hormones you would monitor on trt. If you shut down the estrogen entirely, you could cause osteoporosis. Most of us guys value the virilization that the hormones bring to us. It makes the hassles of maintaining it worthwhile.

Well, that's true of course, but several studies of adex which I've seen indicate that it doesn't entirely suppress estrogen. Having said that, I wouldn't take adex for more than two months as a rule of thumb. If it hasn't worked by then it never will. And I do think long-term suppression poses problems.

I'm out of my league here. I'll leave it to the doctors for informed comment.

 

[greyowl]

awesome response lads. i think i get what your saying. i really dont want to be getting on the TRT band waggon if i dont have to. i was on it for a while, but the whole atrophy thing, and the bother of having to go on HCG- which u cant seem to get in the UK- makes TRT seem like a never ending process.

In a word could you advise me. I have the body of a pretty typical hypergonadal block. fatty chest but skinny limbs, and i want to get a more typically masculainised. in a word can i improve just by lowering estrogen. i never get morning wood and i dont have mucbh upper body strengh.

but im conserned that my low levels of T will be too low even if i take dim.

any thoughts- ps thanks for all the help

You've left out a lot of detail. For example I don't get morning wood either, but I'm in mid mid-50s so I wouldn't expect to. Doesn't prevent me from growing a chubby whenever I need to (and often when I don't need to).

Some thoughts.

I don't think lowering estrogen levels is a magic bullet for most men, I think you need to focus on bringing all your hormones into proper balance.

Resistance training increases test levels and intensive cardio decreases it, so if I were in your shoes I would focus my training on weights, and do lots of it (working up gradually of course).

As suggested, stay away from soy, and don't be shy about eating red meat as long as your overall intake of saturated fats is not high.

I recommend a book called "The Anabolic Diet" by Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale as a good way to boost your test levels, as long as you aren't turned off by meat-heavy, lower carb diets. Di Pasquale is a genius, as one would expect since he's Canadian.

Various substances have been shown to help lower e levels somewhat and relatively safely, including chrysin-x, smilax, saw palmetto, and as you know, DIM.

Substances which have been shown to increase test levels include vitamin E, chromium, boron, and zinc (but research zinc carefully since too much of it is a bad thing). I have no trouble getting all of these in proper quantities through my diet rather than taking them as supplements.

Some people swear by Tribulus terrestris but almost all of the clinical studies I've seen are sponsored by companies that sell it.

I'd try the diet / weight training / proven supplements route for at least six months to see where it gets you. If you haven't made any progress by then, it's time to find a specialist in anti-aging medecine, of which there are plenty in the UK.