First Cycle and PCT

[ChestRockwell]

Again, I'll ask you exactly the same question I asked @Savagesteve . Do you even read what I write?

Please quote where I used the phrase "PCT doesn't work". Otherwise, just another example of making things up to invent arguments (i.e. strawman)

 

[GeorgeForemanRules]

Since when is coming off a good idea? What is more rough on the endocrine system following a blast?

Duncetastic

Let me be very clear, I do NOT support this cycle baloney. If someone decides the time is right to use exogenous AAS, then this should be a life-long commitment barring health complications.

Hell yeah, just roid non stop toll you are dead, excellent medical advise son.

And NO NO NO, PCT isn't required to get endogenous production occurring again, who told you this?

More horrible advice from the king of bro logic, his only bro logic that no one agrees with.

Post some medical stats to back your terrible, illogical and extremely dangerous advice son.

 

[ChestRockwell]

More horrible advice from the king of bro logic, his only bro logic that no one agrees with.

Post some medical stats to back your terrible, illogical and extremely dangerous advice son.

Trending your posts on the site demonstrate to me that you are only here for conflict. So, it benefits no one by engaging with you.

I will say, it is rather ironic how you chose your attack strategy (the bro logic method). If time permits, you should trend some of my past posts...not required, but you might get a kick out of it...

 

[GeorgeForemanRules]

So no facts.

I wish I could say i was surprised.

 

[Savagesteve]

So no facts.

I wish I could say i was surprised.

Lol I just gave up on entertaining him all together.

 

[ChestRockwell]

It can be entertaining, but we're here to help others. And both fear mongering and providing incorrect/incomplete data to inexperienced AAS users is quite irresponsible. So I'll always jump in to correct this when I see it.

 

[Savagesteve]

It can be entertaining, but we're here to help others. And both fear mongering and providing incorrect/incomplete data to inexperienced AAS users is quite irresponsible. So I'll always jump in to correct this when I see it.

What information did you provide that proved the information given was incorrect?

 

[ChestRockwell]

Okay, if you want to continue engaging, fair enough...

Pct will be needed in order to get the body producing test again.

Contraceptive efficacy of testosterone-induced azoospermia in normal men. World Health Organization Task Force on methods for the regulation of male fertility.
Lancet. 1990 Oct 20; 336(8721):955-9.

Chose this as it was a large study group consisting of over 270 males on 200mg/week of TestE for over six months. Although the study was designed in regards to measuring exogenous testosterone's impactgs on fertility, we can still use it to throw serious doubts into your claims that a "PCT will be needed to get testosterone production started again".

None of the subjects used any sort of "PCT" and all had LH/FSH/Testosterone production restored after the body's negative feedback loops detected the lack of exogenous testosterone in the system, just as the body is designed to do.

Liu PY, Swerdloff RS, Christenson PD, Handelsman DJ, Wang C; Hormonal Male
Contraception Summit Group.. Rate, extent, and modifiers of spermatogenic
recovery after hormonal male contraception: an integrated analysis. Lancet. 2006
Apr 29;367(9520):1412-20.

Liu (et al) were also interested in fertility and did a detailed meta-analysis of over 30 studies designed to see how long it took for things like sperm recovery to be at baseline following androgen treatments of various types. Guess what they found? Even without "PCT" treatments, restoration of things like LH/FSH/Test occurred quite quickly (within 1-2 months) and even sperm count thresholds (which take much longer) were between 2.5-3.5 months.

Although low on the meter of "shit that matters", I have numerous blood panels on myself when I had to go off for any length of time years ago for my n=1

No pct will be good if you want to lose what gains you made over the 12 weeks on cycle.

This is a serious question, and I am truly not trying to sound condescending but do you understand what the mechanisms behind hypertrophy are and why this statement I've quoted makes no sense? We can discuss in depth further if you'd like...

 

[BigSky]

This guy is probably 3/4 the way through his cycle. I would hope he has his ai figured out.

@ChestRockwell this is a just a question, so would you say that pct doesn't help speed up recovery and that for the average gym goer using gear to "look good" or break a plateau, should commit to trt and blast and cruise instead?

I ask because,
In many people who use steroids, I believe they are not ready for the commitment to blast and cruise and be in trt dosages for the rest of their lives. So utilizing pct meds will allow them to recover quicker instead of waiting for the body to recover on its own or going on trt.

 

[GeorgeForemanRules]

Lol I just gave up on entertaining him all together.

He is boring, but his bro logic is dangerous and that is the only reason I respond to his nonsense.

 

[Njb371]

This guy is probably 3/4 the way through his cycle. I would hope he has his ai figured out.

@ChestRockwell this is a just a question, so would you say that pct doesn't help speed up recovery and that for the average gym goer using gear to "look good" or break a plateau, should commit to trt and blast and cruise instead?

I ask because,
In many people who use steroids, I believe they are not ready for the commitment to blast and cruise and be in trt dosages for the rest of their lives. So utilizing pct meds will allow them to recover quicker instead of waiting for the body to recover on its own or going on trt.

I actually held off on the cycle and haven't bought anything I would need yet. My job picks up a lot during year end and I thought it would a better idea to wait until the holidays are over to have all my focus on diet and training.

The PCT versus blast and cruise argument is interesting though. I'm not sure I would even be willing to cruise after a first cycle. Maybe I would consider it after a second cycle, but I think it would be better for me to go through PCT.



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[BigSky]

I actually held off on the cycle and haven't bought anything I would need yet. My job picks up a lot during year end and I thought it would a better idea to wait until the holidays are over to have all my focus on diet and training.

The PCT versus blast and cruise argument is interesting though. I'm not sure I would even be willing to cruise after a first cycle. Maybe I would consider it after a second cycle, but I think it would be better for me to go through PCT.



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Great idea.
I'd do the simple test e/c at 500pw cycle for 10-12weeks and use adex as an ai at .25eod and increase if needed depending on e2 sides.
Pct I'd use clomid and nolva

Good idea waiting. Get everything else in check before using gear. Gear is only the icing on the cake. No one likes a cake that's only icing lol.

Edit: also get pre/mid/post bloods to get a baseline, to dial in ai and see if gear is legit, and to see if you return to normal.

Cycling is always recommended over blasting and cruising. And B/C in my eyes is only for people on trt already or who are getting paid to use gear

 

[ChestRockwell]

@ChestRockwell this is a just a question, so would you say that pct doesn't help speed up recovery and that for the average gym goer using gear to "look good" or break a plateau, should commit to trt and blast and cruise instead?

Honestly, I am firmly against the "cycle/PCT" methodology and feel that folks should commit to "blast/cruise" once they definitively decide that AAS is the choice for them.

Let's not fool ourselves to think it doesn't happen but are the risks worth using AAS simply to "look good"? The truth is that once someone gets a taste of what AAS can do for them, how many know someone that truly just did one cycle? Sure, there are examples, but they are most certainly not common.

As far as speeding up recovery, I think common PCT protocols are simply based upon conjecture as you'll very likely never find a controlled trial comparing a person coming off cold turkey versus someone running any of the number of PCTs you see. I just think it is largely mental masturbation myself, as I've never anecdotally seen any issues coming off cold turkey myself or any of my athletes. And when you don't have to run unnecessary compounds (often with sides/risks of their own) then that is always a bonus to me.

How many run thyroid PCTs when coming off? Or insulin PCTs? I just wonder why are testosterone PCTs so popular?

The PCT versus blast and cruise argument is interesting though. I'm not sure I would even be willing to cruise after a first cycle. Maybe I would consider it after a second cycle, but I think it would be better for me to go through PCT.

I won't ever fault someone for doing self-experimentation, because the best way to speak about something is to have first-hand experience.

Is a PCT "wrong"? No

Is a PCT "unnecessary" and causing the use of unnecessary exogenous hormones? Probably

 

[Test_Subject]

http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(08)01280-6/fulltext

Pretty clear evidence that SERMS boost test levels significantly. Will you go back to baseline without PCT? Probably, but who wants to wait that long?

 

[ChestRockwell]

Pretty clear evidence that SERMS boost test levels significantly. Will you go back to baseline without pct? Probably, but who wants to wait that long?

Thanks for posting that, good stuff. We just have to be careful because the subjects being used were subfertile men with idiopathic oligozoospermia, meaning "no causative factor is found for their decrease in sperm concentration or quality by common clinical, instrumental, or laboratory means". So, it is plausible that eugonadal subjects may have differing results...

But, even if they do not, we are all still operating here on a bit of conjecture. In a perfect world, we'd have an RCT that compared two groups and crossed them over (PCT or "cold turkey"). But, beyond a small group (us), nobody has interest in funding something like this...

Again, anecdotes are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to hierarchy of evidence, but we have an entire thread devoted to this subject on a competitor board and it is nearly universal in that those who come off do so sans PCT and nobody has ever experienced delays or issues. My personal experience, having done this many times (both with PCT protocols when I was new and cold turkey when I was more experienced) resulted in absolutely zero differences to me.

My personal belief is that how an individual conducts their lifestyle is critical here. The individual who just says "F it" and becomes a potato at the time they drop AAS is probably going to feel a lot worse than the individual who maintains the lifestyle of training, diet, etc.