Why count protein as calories?

[Redrum42]

As I understand, the majority of protein we eat isn't burned for energy unless under dire circumstances, especially with AAS. So why do we count it in our calories? It can greatly distort things, e.g. your average gym rat eating 4000 calories/day, but 300grams of protein, is probably getting over 1000 calories less than he thinks.

Also confused by why we need to be in calorie surplus to gain. I know it is proven beyond a doubt 99% of the time, but it just doesn't make sense to me, for basically the same reasons as above. If we don't "burn" protein under normal circumstances (eating at/around maintenance) why can't we make significant gains without surplus calories coming from fat and carbs? So lifting and eating at maintenance, If the body isn't burning protein, but its apparently not using it to gain muscle are we just pooping it out? I find it confusing that it would only "repair" skeletal muscle to exactly as it was before the lifting session, back to 100%, instead of getting 101% to "over-repair" much like a broken bone healing thicker.



Maybe I'm missing something obvious. I'm sure I'm in for some angry flaming posts by some of our lovely, ever angry posters here.

 

[Docd187123]

Bc the calories from protein do count towards your daily intake. And protein does get used as energy in circumstances that are not dire.

If you're not in a calorie surplus then your body does not have enough energy to meet its activity and physiological needs in a deficit or just enough to meet those needs at maintenance. By what mechanism do you propose the body build new tissues,whether fat or muscle, without excess energy needs?

 

[Ironlord]

Ummmm.. Your first paragraph answered your question.
Protein has 4 calories per gram.

Let's say you're eating 4000 calories and 300g of protein. That means you're getting 1200 calories from protein.
If you bumped that up to 500g of protein, because as you say "protein doesn't count". Now you're getting 2000 calories from protein.

Excess calories make you fat. Doesnt matter if it's protein, fat or carbs.

 

[Redrum42]

^Hmm..for example, if you ate at a slight calorie surplus, but 100% of it was protein, would you really gain fat?

If so can you show some studies supporting that? I can't seem to find any


Maybe I don't understand what you mean

 

[Kinetic]

^Hmm..for example, if you ate at a slight calorie surplus, but 100% of it was protein, would you really gain fat?

If so can you show some studies supporting that? I can't seem to find any


Maybe I don't understand what you mean

You won't find any studies confirming it because it's impossible to eat a diet that's 100% protein.

You will find studies linking high protein diets to elevated triglycerides from the saturated fats in many forms of protein.

 

[Redrum42]

^ok, sure 100% is improbable, but you could get pretty close with supplements/isolates/bcaas. and yes I've seen some studies "linking" the two, but I don't seem much direct causation of protein->fat, other than just "adding protein adds calories adds fats"

Maybe I'm not looking at the right ones.

So the generally accepted idea that protein isn't used for energy under normal circumstances is completely wrong?

 

[Redrum42]

Bc the calories from protein do count towards your daily intake. And protein does get used as energy in circumstances that are not dire.

If you're not in a calorie surplus then your body does not have enough energy to meet its activity and physiological needs in a deficit or just enough to meet those needs at maintenance. By what mechanism do you propose the body build new tissues,whether fat or muscle, without excess energy needs?

Studies showing significant amounts of protein being used for energy under normal circumstances? Having a hard time finding exactly that.


Also, if protein were indeed being spared the "burning", that would the the proposed mechanism. Make sense?

 

[Kinetic]

"adding protein adds calories adds fats"

You're answering your own question.

Take things into consideration things like age, weight, lifestyle, etc., and that will determine how the body uses protein by converting it into fat or muscle.

If a sedentary person eats a caloric surplus diet that's extremely high in protein, which is not recommended by the way, do you really think that the calories won't be converted into fat? You aren't going to find a mechanism preventing it because it also doesn't exist.

 

[Redrum42]

If a sedentary person eats a caloric surplus diet that's extremely high in protein, which is not recommended by the way, do you really think that the calories won't be converted into fat? You aren't going to find a mechanism preventing it because it also doesn't exist.

This way my question, and I was looking for direct causation, and studies sort of explaining that more in depth. I didn't mean to imply there was something preventing it other than it is highly inefficient, and generally doesn't happen unless desperate. But I guess that's wrong then huh. This is exactly what Is taught in college level nutrition classes and textbooks, so, good to know I guess.


Burning protein for calories is an efficient process, and happens regardless of diet and lifestyle, 100% of the time, in significant amounts, is this correct?

To me saying " we added protein, he got fat" doesn't prove correlation vs. causation, and I just wanted to make sure it was the latter

 

[Kinetic]

We have several doctors and nutritionists on this board who may be able to cite the studies you're looking for. I'm neither... and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

Most of the studies I'm finding deal either with resistance-trained subjects or patients on a calorie deficit who consume high protein diets. Neither of those groups will show much, if any, fat gain on those diets, obviously, but I imagine that if a completely sedentary, obese person were to consume a very high protein diet, the calories not used for energy will be stored as fat. Just like they would on any caloric surplus diet without burning the calories during exercise. Just deductive reasoning on my part, really. I don't have a medical journal to back that up, so I'm just going on assumptions and common sense.

 

[Docd187123]

You're answering your own question.

Take things into consideration things like age, weight, lifestyle, etc., and that will determine how the body uses protein by converting it into fat or muscle.

If a sedentary person eats a caloric surplus diet that's extremely high in protein, which is not recommended by the way, do you really think that the calories won't be converted into fat? You aren't going to find a mechanism preventing it because it also doesn't exist.

Protein will never be converted into fat in humans in any realistic way.

 

[Docd187123]

Studies showing significant amounts of protein being used for energy under normal circumstances? Having a hard time finding exactly that.

You said dire. Dire and normal don't make up the entire continuum but anyway, when dietary fat is too low on a keto diet then gluconeogenesis ramps up is an example for you.

Also, if protein were indeed being spared the "burning", that would the the proposed mechanism. Make sense?

But you can't stop during a deficit that so its not a mechanism. Look up the Conservation of Energy

 

[JC456]

Why count protein as calories?

COS YOU FUCKING ATE IT

 

[Kinetic]

Protein will never be converted into fat in humans in any realistic way.

Is there merit to the argument that excess amino acids that can't be used by the body for energy will be converted to fatty acids? If so, though not a direct conversion from protein to fat, the chemical process still takes place.

If not, I stand corrected. I'm learning and won't make excuses if I'm wrong. Just seemed like the logical option.

 

[Docd187123]

Is there merit to the argument that excess amino acids that can't be used by the body for energy will be converted to fatty acids? If so, though not a direct conversion from protein to fat, the chemical process still takes place.

If not, I stand corrected. I'm learning and won't make excuses if I'm wrong. Just seemed like the logical option.

I think it's the way you worded it. I'll try to explain it in more detail.

Technically, you're correct that the metabolic pathway exists for protein to be converted to fat. Protein first would undergo gluconeogenesis to render glucose and then that glucose would have to be converted to fat by de novo lipogensis. The problem comes in the reality of that happening. Basically, unless you're eating well in excess of your maintenance of only protein (we're talking 500g probably at the very least) you're not going to experience fat being stored as protein.

Dietary fat's primary fate is to be stored as fat. Carbohydrates are primarily used for energy or stored as glycogen and in very, very rare circumstances are converted to fat. So what ends up happening when you eat an excess of carbs or protein is not that they get stored as fat but that it reduces the need for the body to tap into stored fat as an energy source so the dietary fat you eat gets stored and very little gets oxidized for energy use which in turn adds more fat to the body.

 

[Dr JIM]

Protein will never be converted into fat in humans in any realistic way.

Extra calories whether they are fat protein or carbs are FIRST used to maintain BMR thru their conversion into glucose.

"left over" protein is either utilized for those bodily functions that REQUIRE protein and there are MANY, or is converted into fat.

However as @Docd187123 implied the use of protein for lipogenesis is NOT preferred bc
the energy required to convert protein into fat and from there into glucose would be prohibitive.

Fat folk remain fat not bc of their "high protein intake" but bc of their excessive intake of CARBS and FAT, in addition to their low BMR!

Much of the difficulty answering questions on subjects of this nature arise bc there are significant differences bt the metabolic process of "athletes", obese folk and everyone in between AND changes in "insulin sensitivity" is one of them.

I'd suggest the OP check out Wiki to better familiarize himself with the fundamentals such as the "Krebs cycle".

Jim

 

[Kinetic]

I appreciate the breakdown. It's a more convoluted subject than I thought!

 

[Dr JIM]

I appreciate the breakdown. It's a more convoluted subject than I thought!

Actually it's really NOT that complex once you understand the Krebs (AKA the Citric Acid) cycle.

But as @Docd187123 mentioned it's critical folk understand as few basic FACTS.

- excluding disease states the human body NEVER wastes, as in excretes, "extra" caloric food stuffs.

However since it's ability to "store" Carbs or Protein is limited to glycogen and SKM, any remaining calories will be converted into fat, once basal requirements are satisfied.

That's not to suggest "fat conversion" is preferred from a metabolic perspective bc that's certainly not the case since lipogenesis itself requires more energy than catabolizing an
food stuff into energy once absorbed from the GI tract.

Finally as @Docd187123 emphasized the conversion of protein into fat would be quite unusual since it's the most "expensive" food to absorb from the GI tract, but also requires an additional energy expenditure of about 30%, for protein to be utilized as a lipogenic precursor.

 

[Dr JIM]

To me saying " we added protein, he got fat" doesn't prove correlation vs. causation, and I just wanted to make sure it was the latter

Potatoes per se are NOT what "make folk fat" but rather everything else that's atop them such as butter, sour cream, bacon bits, croutons etc.

Let's correlate a CAUSATION; "we added protein" AND WHAT ELSE !

 

[Redrum42]

Thank you very much @Dr JIM

So many people/posts leave me thinking "really?" And 2 minutes of ncbi/pubmed time prove them wrong. This is never the case with you.

It's a complicated subject, protein as calories, but it is somewhat as I suspected. Protein should not be considered in the same way carbs/fat are, as far as calorie surplus. That is not to say it shouldn't be counted.


Personally, I dont count protein in my calories (as long as I keep it it within the same range of 180-220g/day) and only count carbs and fat, as they vary more in my diet and have much more of an effect on fat and water retention/bloating (carbs) and general energy