Training during cutting

[Alex.stmpnk]

hello friends
I am about to start to cut after a 10 week testosterone enantathe cycle; so I have read about how to cut but I still have a few questions, so please help me clarify:

- training; I know I have to increase cardio and preferably add high intensity interval cardio; but what about weight lifting??? Should I continue lifting as hard as during cycle??? Should I change to higher reps and less weight??? The idea is to avoid muscle catabolism as much as possible

- macros: I have calculated my TDEE and will reduce 15% calories to be in a deficit not too large so I don't catabolize muscle instead of fat; I will be using albuterol and caffeine; should I re-calculate the TDEE considering that albuterol revs up the metabolism???

Thanks!!!

 

[DonQKong]

There is a lot to chip away at here...

1. Your recovery period will go up after cycle and you need to factor that in as you plan your intensity, volume etc. Depending on whether you are PLing or BBing, higher reps / lower weights also need to be factored in with sleep, nutrition and rest
2. Cardio is 20% of a cut. What you eat is 80%. Abs are made in the kitchen, not in the gym. So yes, increase your cardio, but put a lot more effort in what gets in your mouth
3. Your TDEE will be changed by coffee and albuterol. There is no magic formula, so you need to plan it out, execute your plan diligently, check results and adjust, adjust, adjust until you have get it more focused and accurate.

I'm two months post cycle now as a PLer. Have finally hit single digit BF and it took a lot - A LOT - of trying and failing until I hit what works for me: Work out a like a mofo, eat clean and sibutramine. Dropped 15% (15 kilos / 35 pounds) in bodyweight and only taken off 5-8% off my 1RM.

Good luck - oh and use MyFitnessPal and take daily pictures to keep you motivated

DQ

 

[Alex.stmpnk]

There is a lot to chip away at here...

1. Your recovery period will go up after cycle and you need to factor that in as you plan your intensity, volume etc. Depending on whether you are PLing or BBing, higher reps / lower weights also need to be factored in with sleep, nutrition and rest
2. Cardio is 20% of a cut. What you eat is 80%. Abs are made in the kitchen, not in the gym. So yes, increase your cardio, but put a lot more effort in what gets in your mouth
3. Your TDEE will be changed by coffee and albuterol. There is no magic formula, so you need to plan it out, execute your plan diligently, check results and adjust, adjust, adjust until you have get it more focused and accurate.

I'm two months post cycle now as a PLer. Have finally hit single digit BF and it took a lot - A LOT - of trying and failing until I hit what works for me: Work out a like a mofo, eat clean and sibutramine. Dropped 15% (15 kilos / 35 pounds) in bodyweight and only taken off 5-8% off my 1RM.

Good luck - oh and use MyFitnessPal and take daily pictures to keep you motivated

DQ

Hey! Thanks for the awesome advice.
I am using MyNetDiary to track macross and calories intake.
According to my initial estimation my cutting calorie intake should be 2100 cals daily split in 35% fat 35% carbs and 30% protein; so this is my first day.
Sadly the drugstore was out of albuterol and it will be until tomorrow that I can get the pills
Congrats on your one digit BF%; you must look very ripped; 15 kilos is a lot!
I'm into BBing; aim is to get a lean body with good muscular tone, not huge, what would be your recommendation about weight limiting?? Some have said that I must continue lifting the same as when bulking, but I'm not sure if with the calorie deficit training has hard will lead to muscle catabolism???

 

[DonQKong]

I'm into BBing; aim is to get a lean body with good muscular tone, not huge, what would be your recommendation about weight limiting?? Some have said that I must continue lifting the same as when bulking, but I'm not sure if with the calorie deficit training has hard will lead to muscle catabolism???

You'll be amazed how much your body can take before going catabolic. I've done Bulgarian two times now and even squatting every day, you just keep on growing.

What I do is exactly the same as when I'm on cycle. Train and eat like a mofo, but I cut down on the amount of hours in the gym. These days, I work out 7 days per week, and am seldom in the gym more than an hour. I take sets out, so instead of doing say 60%*5, 80%*3, 100%*1, 80%*3, 60%*3-4, I go 60*5%, 80%*3, 100%*1

Its your body, though, and you need to find out what works for it. You should be more focused on your nutrition than working out though

DQ

 

[Wunderpus]

hello friends
I am about to start to cut after a 10 week testosterone enantathe cycle; so I have read about how to cut but I still have a few questions, so please help me clarify:

- training; I know I have to increase cardio and preferably add high intensity interval cardio; but what about weight lifting??? Should I continue lifting as hard as during cycle??? Should I change to higher reps and less weight??? The idea is to avoid muscle catabolism as much as possible

- macros: I have calculated my TDEE and will reduce 15% calories to be in a deficit not too large so I don't catabolize muscle instead of fat; I will be using albuterol and caffeine; should I re-calculate the TDEE considering that albuterol revs up the metabolism???

Thanks!!!

I'll let you know what has worked for me...

The "high intensity interval training" is good for the beginning. But, I promise you this, if you're cutting right... HIIT will be FAR too taxing about midway through your cut. So, do it while you can, but, when you hit a wall, start doing just LISS. LISS in the morning, fasted, is my personal favorite way of burning fat anyway.

Don't adjust your macros, yet. Give it 2 or so weeks and evaluate. Take measurements once a week, same day, same time. Also, take your weight EVERY DAY same time (fasted AM is best). Become a literal PSYCHO with tracking what you eat, when you eat, etc. I like to eat 70% or more of my daily carbs before, during and post lifting. The LAST thing I want to compromise is intensity in the gym... That should be the LAST thing to go.

Good luck, you'll do fine. Remember, try to avoid stressing your body TOO much... Stress = cortisol which is NO BUENO.

 

[Alex.stmpnk]

I'll let you know what has worked for me...

The "high intensity interval training" is good for the beginning. But, I promise you this, if you're cutting right... HIIT will be FAR too taxing about midway through your cut. So, do it while you can, but, when you hit a wall, start doing just LISS. LISS in the morning, fasted, is my personal favorite way of burning fat anyway.

Don't adjust your macros, yet. Give it 2 or so weeks and evaluate. Take measurements once a week, same day, same time. Also, take your weight EVERY DAY same time (fasted AM is best). Become a literal PSYCHO with tracking what you eat, when you eat, etc. I like to eat 70% or more of my daily carbs before, during and post lifting. The LAST thing I want to compromise is intensity in the gym... That should be the LAST thing to go.

Good luck, you'll do fine. Remember, try to avoid stressing your body TOO much... Stress = cortisol which is NO BUENO.

Thanks for the advise!!! I am tracking my food and calories daily, I will have to investigate what LISS is but I guess it's something like low intensity training, right??
I am using albuterol which I hope will help me prevent muscle waste, sides are very mild for me so I think I will complete an 8 weeks cycle with no problem
Just one question; do you think it's advisable during cutting to do cardio right after lifting session?? Some people say no but I still don't get why

 

[Xlgx]

You can try Miss instead of liss

 

[Leancuisine]

I was reading one of the best things to control cortisol levels is Vitamin C 1 gram a day.

 

[Wunderpus]

Thanks for the advise!!! I am tracking my food and calories daily, I will have to investigate what LISS is but I guess it's something like low intensity training, right??
I am using albuterol which I hope will help me prevent muscle waste, sides are very mild for me so I think I will complete an 8 weeks cycle with no problem
Just one question; do you think it's advisable during cutting to do cardio right after lifting session?? Some people say no but I still don't get why

You can absolutely do your cardio post lift, but I still think it's "better" (in terms of overall effectiveness if fat burning is the goal) to do it fasted in the AM. Second best is post lifting. The "idea", so to speak, is for your body to use it's fat stores as energy for the cardio, as there aren't any readily available nutrients such as carbs, fats, proteins etc. from earlier in the day.... The second most "depleted" state of the day will be post lifting. Since hypertophy isn't the goal here, it's fat loss and muscle sparing, cardio post lifting is fine. People advise against PWO cardio due to the fact they are largely fixated on post workout nutrition - or "anabolic window" as many call it- and not seeing the bigger picture. Overall, 30 minutes +/- post lifting shouldn't really be too big of a deal for nutrition in terms of rebuilding muscle tissue (if muscle growth was the goal, which it is not here).

Albuterol is good, I do prefer clen overall, but I find albuterol to be second best... Just make sure you're taking keto/benadryl at night.

 

[Alex.stmpnk]

You can absolutely do your cardio post lift, but I still think it's "better" (in terms of overall effectiveness if fat burning is the goal) to do it fasted in the AM. Second best is post lifting. The "idea", so to speak, is for your body to use it's fat stores as energy for the cardio, as there aren't any readily available nutrients such as carbs, fats, proteins etc. from earlier in the day.... The second most "depleted" state of the day will be post lifting. Since hypertophy isn't the goal here, it's fat loss and muscle sparing, cardio post lifting is fine. People advise against PWO cardio due to the fact they are largely fixated on post workout nutrition - or "anabolic window" as many call it- and not seeing the bigger picture. Overall, 30 minutes +/- post lifting shouldn't really be too big of a deal for nutrition in terms of rebuilding muscle tissue (if muscle growth was the goal, which it is not here).

Albuterol is good, I do prefer clen overall, but I find albuterol to be second best... Just make sure you're taking keto/benadryl at night.

Thanks again
Yes I have keto; according to the albuterol cycle guide I read I should take 2 mg of keto before bed for 7 days every second week, right?

 

[Wunderpus]

Thanks again
Yes I have keto; according to the albuterol cycle guide I read I should take 2 mg of keto before bed for 7 days every second week, right?

I just take it every night...

 

[Docd187123]

You can absolutely do your cardio post lift, but I still think it's "better" (in terms of overall effectiveness if fat burning is the goal) to do it fasted in the AM. Second best is post lifting. The "idea", so to speak, is for your body to use it's fat stores as energy for the cardio, as there aren't any readily available nutrients such as carbs, fats, proteins etc. from earlier in the day.... The second most "depleted" state of the day will be post lifting.

Discussion
To the authors’ knowledge, this is the first study to investigate body composition changes associated with aerobic exercise performed in the fasted versus fed state while subjects maintained a caloric deficit. It has been hypothesized that exercising when fasted forces the body to rely on using fat as a substrate rather than carbohydrate, thereby reducing body fat to a greater extent than performance of post-prandial exercise. Our results refute the veracity of this hypothesis. Although both groups lost a significant amount of weight and fat mass, no differences were seen between conditions in any outcome measure regardless of pre-exercise feeding status.

Body composition changes associated with fasted versus non-fasted aerobic exercise

 

[Wunderpus]

Discussion
To the authors’ knowledge, this is the first study to investigate body composition changes associated with aerobic exercise performed in the fasted versus fed state while subjects maintained a caloric deficit. It has been hypothesized that exercising when fasted forces the body to rely on using fat as a substrate rather than carbohydrate, thereby reducing body fat to a greater extent than performance of post-prandial exercise. Our results refute the veracity of this hypothesis. Although both groups lost a significant amount of weight and fat mass, no differences were seen between conditions in any outcome measure regardless of pre-exercise feeding status.

Body composition changes associated with fasted versus non-fasted aerobic exercise

While I always appreciate the info and studies, I also rely on my own anecdotal experiences. Fasted AM cardio has worked better for me, but, you can argue cardio is cardio in terms of calories burned being equal regardless. I do wonder how long the groups were fasted post cardio? I try to fast at LEAST 2 hours post cardio to stay in a fat burning state.... Could be pointless, or it could work better, regardless fasted cardio isn't a WORSE option than non-fasted cardio. And, if one works better personally, why NOT use it?

*edit* "bout and FASTED consumed the shake immediately after finishing the bout." I wonder if this plays a role? I'd never eat immediately after fasted cardio.

 

[Docd187123]

hello friends
I am about to start to cut after a 10 week testosterone enantathe cycle; so I have read about how to cut but I still have a few questions, so please help me clarify:

- training; I know I have to increase cardio and preferably add high intensity interval cardio; but what about weight lifting??? Should I continue lifting as hard as during cycle??? Should I change to higher reps and less weight??? The idea is to avoid muscle catabolism as much as possible

- macros: I have calculated my TDEE and will reduce 15% calories to be in a deficit not too large so I don't catabolize muscle instead of fat; I will be using albuterol and caffeine; should I re-calculate the TDEE considering that albuterol revs up the metabolism???

Thanks!!!

1) you don't need to add cardio or HIIT. HIIT especially will tax your recovery more the deeper you are into the cut. If you want to add in some cardio that's fine but it's not really needed unless you're getting to very lean levels.

2) intensity should stay the same or go up slightly but volume can and should be reduced. A recent study found as little as 1/9 of the original training volume can maintain strength and mass during a cut but it also depends upon carb levels during the cut and the size and length of th deficit.

3) higher reps and less weight is generally the opposite of what you want to do but that also depends upon what you were doin to begin with.

 

[Wunderpus]

1) you don't need to add cardio or HIIT. HIIT especially will tax your recovery more the deeper you are into the cut. If you want to add in some cardio that's fine but it's not really needed unless you're getting to very lean levels.

- Agreed. HIIT is too taxing with the other variables in play.

3) higher reps and less weight is generally the opposite of what you want to do but that also depends upon what you were doin to begin with.

- I like the idea of starting your workouts heavy (in order to not lose strength) and finishing them with higher volume routines. I.e. on chest day, work up to your max bench then finish strong with some higher volume flys etc. The last things I want to lose ar estrength and intensity in the gym...

 

[Alex.stmpnk]

I just take it every night...

How many mg?? You mean every night during the WHOLE time you are using albuterol / clen????

 

[Alex.stmpnk]

Thank you all for your advise, I will continue lifting as usual with reduced volume; I will try the cardio to see what works better for me
One last question; during cycle I was eating 3100 calories for bulking, after calculating my cals for cutting using a TDEE calculator the result was 2200 cals; sonsonce this Monday I am eating 2200 cals a day, do you think this is a good reduction or should I slowly ramp down from 3100 to 2200???

 

[Wunderpus]

Thank you all for your advise, I will continue lifting as usual with reduced volume; I will try the cardio to see what works better for me
One last question; during cycle I was eating 3100 calories for bulking, after calculating my cals for cutting using a TDEE calculator the result was 2200 cals; sonsonce this Monday I am eating 2200 cals a day, do you think this is a good reduction or should I slowly ramp down from 3100 to 2200???

Receptor Downregulation, And How To Avoid It
When used two or more times per day every day, albuterol will slowly induce downregulation of beta receptors. At first, efficacy can be restored by increasing dose. This can be an acceptable approach, although dose shouldn’t be more than doubled. However, the increased dose results in yet more downregulation, and further loss of efficacy that cannot be regained.

However, avoiding downregulation is simplicity itself. All that’s needed is to take ketotifen 1 mg daily before bed.

Ketotifen use not only allows continued efficacy of albuterol without increase of dose, it also aids sleep – which sometimes is a problem during an albuterol cycle – and provides beneficial reduction of TNF-alpha, which often is elevated from intensive exercise. Since elevated TNF-alpha can lower testosterone and IGF-1, this action of ketotifen can be a significant benefit.

Albuterol Profile

 

[Docd187123]

While I always appreciate the info and studies, I also rely on my own anecdotal experiences.

The reason that studies are more valuable than anecdotal experiences is bc they can control for confounding variables, they can prevent confirmation bias, and can be tested against placebo.

Fasted AM cardio has worked better for me, but, you can argue cardio is cardio in terms of calories burned being equal regardless.

In certain circumstances it is a better option. In most circumstances there is no difference. I'm not just talking about calories being equivalent either.

I do wonder how long the groups were fasted post cardio?

They had a shake right after the exercise. My opinion is that it did not do much if anything to hinder fat loss bc in studies it's been shown that RER goes back to baseline comparatively quicker with fasted cardio than with post prandial cardio.

This study was setup to favor the fasted cardio group also. The fact that it was designed to favor the fasted group yet that group didn't have better success is pretty telling.

I try to fast at LEAST 2 hours post cardio to stay in a fat burning state....

You're always in a fat burning and fat storage state regardless of the type of cardio you do or when you eat relative to it. It's incorrect to think fat burning is on and off at specific times bc it misses the big picture. Acute substrate utilization has been shown to be an inaccurate measure of long term fat loss or body comp changes. Being in a hypocaloric diet basically means you're mostly in a "fat burning" state anyway.

Could be pointless, or it could work better, regardless fasted cardio isn't a WORSE option than non-fasted cardio. And, if one works better personally, why NOT use it?

It can be worse than non fasted cardio in certain circumstances.