Insulin pros, your views on combining Lantus with Humalog?

[Evom1]

Please for those unexperienced with insulin and or not under the guidance of a knowledgeable coach do not venture into mixing insulins. Also NEVER even mess with insulin unless you have a glucose monitor and check it very regularly. Insulin is extremely dangerous and I am not suggesting anyone use it. This thread is for educational purposes in hopes of picking the brains of some of the most knowledgeable guys here.

Before going further. Diet will be meticulous and very low fat in this scenario. I am not new to this by any means with nearly a decade of experience behind me. This will be a cycle of aas, gh and insulin

Now my question for some of the very experienced guys such as @ChestRockwell.....i have had excellent results with Lantus in the past as well as Humalog. Both run by themselves and in conjunction with each other. When used together the Lantus was a morning dose and the Humalog was split pre and post workout.

After watching a video by Porter and doing some reading I'm curious about later this year combining a single shot of Lantus upon rising along with Humalog before several meals.

I've safely used both a single 70iu shot of Lantus as well as a split dose of 35iu 2x per day. Humalog was 6iu pre workout and post workout. During this time I never captured a bg reading below 70 nor did I experience hypo symptoms.

In such an experiment, how would you suggest dosing the Lantus and Humalog? My hypothetical starting point which may be adjusted of course is as follows...

35-50iu Lantus upon rising

6iu Humalog with meals 1, 2, 3, 4.

2iu gh 3x per day

Plus aas of course
Workout would happen after meal 5, post workout shake, and a final meal before bed.

My initial thoughts would be to keep fat to an absolute minimum utilizing whey isolate, egg whites etc for protein and a mixture of fast acting carbs with slower carbs each meal. Example meal being let's say egg whites... Oats... Honey and fruit

My question comes here.....how many grams of carbs would be the suggested amount given both insulins are active in the body? Of course multiple bg checks would happen while Humalog is active and a very fast acting carb would always be on hand.

My thought was to have meal 1 be in excess of 100g carbs. Matt Porter suggests 150g. Each meal thereafter I was thinking 75-90g carbs. Given the fact of 6iu Humalog with the Lantus behind it.

My reason for 35-50iu as a starting point for Lantus is because I had no issues with 70iu but since Humalog would be added ontop of it, I feel I should draw that back a bit initially to be safe.




Also, as Matt states in the video I would be utilizing insulin and a very low fat diet for a max of 4 weeks at a time, followed by a break from the insulin and a more varied diet including red meat and such

 

[ChestRockwell]

My reason for 35-50iu as a starting point for Lantus is because I had no issues with 70iu but since Humalog would be added ontop of it, I feel I should draw that back a bit initially to be safe.

If you've been able to run 70IUs in the past, this may suggest your body's insulin sensitivity (at the time) is lowered. I'm also not a big fan of running high doses of Lantus, personally. However, based upon your experience levels and ability to micro-manage your blood glucose throughout the day, you may be willing and able to run higher doses.

My initial thoughts would be to keep fat to an absolute minimum utilizing whey isolate, egg whites etc for protein and a mixture of fast acting carbs with slower carbs each meal. Example meal being let's say egg whites... Oats... Honey and fruit

Why did Mr. Porter suggest keeping dietary fat intake minimized? The amount of dietary fat able to by stored in adipocytes is more highly correlated with your total daily dietary surplus as opposed to total dietary fat intake.

My question comes here.....how many grams of carbs would be the suggested amount given both insulins are active in the body? Of course multiple bg checks would happen while Humalog is active and a very fast acting carb would always be on hand.

This is going to be a highly individual thing. As I mentioned earlier, you might have lowered insulin sensitivity which would mean you may need less CHOs than someone with much higher sensitivity.

You may spend a period of time working on increasing insulin sensitivity before beginning your insulin protocol as you may find that it results in you requiring less exogenous insulin for the same effects.

I think the overall logic of a combined long/short insulin protocol can be sound, but the key is minimizing the amount being used.

 

[Evom1]

Thank you @ChestRockwell

A few points in response to yours

1. This will be implemented after a 16 week contest prep followed by a pct/recovery phase so theoretically insulin sensitivity should be much higher than it was in the past

2. Porter's reasoning was that in his opinion, while Lantus is in the body it's highly likely dietary fat will be stored as body fat whereas it would be more difficult for carbs to be stored as fat in the proposed cycle. Whether this is accurate or not I do not know, I'm simply restating his points

I had wondered in the past about my Lantus dose although my coach at the time assured me it was a moderate dose and below what many of his clients would use. Yet what I've seen from various logs on forums, individuals generally state doses around half that.

 

[ChestRockwell]

Oh okay, cool...you should be quite sensitive after a contest prep.

Porter's reasoning was that in his opinion, while Lantus is in the body it's highly likely dietary fat will be stored as body fat whereas it would be more difficult for carbs to be stored as fat in the proposed cycle. Whether this is accurate or not I do not know, I'm simply restating his points

Triglycerides are being stored into adipocytes and also released all day long. That is just the nature of the beast.

If you actually enjoy eating a low fat diet, that's fine - I would urge you to challenge the need to do so though, if that is not something you enjoy. I've never employed this strategy personally, or with anyone I've worked with.

Yes, dietary fats are often lowered but not to minuscule levels (doing this for any significant amount of time could also lead to other issues). And you may just feel awful, depending on your body's sensitivity to dietary fat intake.

I had wondered in the past about my Lantus dose although my coach at the time assured me it was a moderate dose and below what many of his clients would use. Yet what I've seen from various logs on forums, individuals generally state doses around half that.

Yeah, 70IUs is a very aggressive dose. I would ask that you consider using a very modest dose (15-20IUs) when you do reintroduce it. Over the weeks, you can always adjust it (and you will likely lose some sensitivity to it over the weeks as that's just how it works when using exogenous insulin plus lots of CHOs). But yeah, I would under no circumstances use 70IUs on day one...

 

[Evom1]

@ChestRockwell
Absolutely I would follow your advice and start and a much lower dose as you described.

I also do not think I'd feel good with a very low fat diet. I have always been one who feels the best overall and in the gym when my primary protein source is red meat for example as opposed to chicken or fish.


With a basal dose of Lantus at say 15-20iu what would you suggest beginning the Humalog at per meal? I'm not one who has difficulty eating a substantial amount of carbs. My daily routine and work is also relaxed enough that I'll never be distracted to the point of not being able to immediately get to fast acting carbs if needed

 

[ChestRockwell]

With a basal dose of Lantus at say 15-20iu what would you suggest beginning the Humalog at per meal

Same principles exist here...start very modestly (e.g. 5-10IUs) and begin with just a single LOG injection alongside your largest meal (typically post-workout). You should get a lot of mileage out of this.

Should things begin to stall out, you can consider adding a second LOG injection along with your second largest meal. Rinse and repeat as necessary...

 

[Wunderpus]

Oh okay, cool...you should be quite sensitive after a contest prep.



Triglycerides are being stored into adipocytes and also released all day long. That is just the nature of the beast.

If you actually enjoy eating a low fat diet, that's fine - I would urge you to challenge the need to do so though, if that is not something you enjoy. I've never employed this strategy personally, or with anyone I've worked with.

Yes, dietary fats are often lowered but not to minuscule levels (doing this for any significant amount of time could also lead to other issues). And you may just feel awful, depending on your body's sensitivity to dietary fat intake.



Yeah, 70IUs is a very aggressive dose. I would ask that you consider using a very modest dose (15-20IUs) when you do reintroduce it. Over the weeks, you can always adjust it (and you will likely lose some sensitivity to it over the weeks as that's just how it works when using exogenous insulin plus lots of CHOs). But yeah, I would under no circumstances use 70IUs on day one...

The whole "no fat with insulin" myth started when people were using shorter acting insulins... The fat slowed down the digestion of the carbs, causing hypoglycemia. The myth somehow became convoluted and was "insulin with fat, makes you fat". Which, I can't see how a fat calorie or a carb calorie would be more likely to cause fat gain (assuming one isn't in ketosis etc.).

Another note, 70ius/day is aggressive, I agree. When I was using lantus, I used 20ius/day, occasionally paired with about 5iu's humalog immediately post workout. Lantus is expensive to run at that level, and I can't imagine how long windows of exposure to exo. insulin would do any favors. Rather, I would opt to do 1 day "on" Lantus, followed by a low carb day (to keep insulin sensitivity in check), another day "off" lantus but your "regular" diet, and then Lantus again. So, Lantus 2-3 times a week max. Also, adding berberine seems to make a lot of sense here.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Wunderpus]

Same principles exist here...start very modestly (e.g. 5-10IUs) and begin with just a single LOG injection alongside your largest meal (typically post-workout). You should get a lot of mileage out of this.

Should things begin to stall out, you can consider adding a second LOG injection along with your second largest meal. Rinse and repeat as necessary...

I liked the "Milos" method honestly. Something like 10iu humalog pre workout, followed by another 5iu humalog post workout. Keep in mind, folks at home, Milos also does insane training sessions with crazy giant sets. These methods deplete glycogen stores at a FAR greater level, so the insulin/carb dosages are justified. For 99% of users, 1 shot of ~7iu humalog will go a long way.

 

[Wunderpus]

God dammit I feel retarded doing 3 posts in a row, but, fuck it.

The idea of using insulin when muscle glycogen stores are full makes zero sense to me... Why pin insulin nowhere around the training window? Surely glycogen stores have recovered after sleep and breakfast (as an example), why would you need to shuttle more nutrients to your muscles?

I can't imagine you would.... More likely your body will shuttle those nutrients to fat cells when the muscle stores are full. I'd be glad to know if that's flawed logic, but I can't imagine how your body would fill your muscle glycogen beyond capacity?

 

[ChestRockwell]

Something like 10iu humalog pre workout

Since I don't currently hold the belief that pre-workout injections of insulin offer any substantial/unique benefits, I tend to steer folks in other directions due to the inherent risks of having exogenous insulin in one's system during a workout.

 

[ChestRockwell]

I'd be glad to know if that's flawed logic

I don't see it as "flawed" necessarily, but rather focusing on the acute (which may be ideal when not using GH).

However, there are other things to consider for those using large amounts of GH/insulin, such as signaling pathway sensitivity and the like.

 

[Wunderpus]

I don't see it as "flawed" necessarily, but rather focusing on the acute (which may be ideal when not using GH).

However, there are other things to consider for those using large amounts of GH/insulin, such as signaling pathway sensitivity and the like.

That's true. The GH is a player here, but, I would imagine the GH dosages would have to be at 5iu+ of pharma/day to start to play a huge role.... I used to pin ~2-3iu of humalog with each GH shot... I remember a while back people were saying it "increases IGF-1 release", not sure how much merit there was to that claim.

 

[Wunderpus]

Since I don't currently hold the belief that pre-workout injections of insulin offer any substantial/unique benefits, I tend to steer folks in other directions due to the inherent risks of having exogenous insulin in one's system during a workout.

That's understandable. I think the biggest factor is the pump. However, the risk of going hypo intra workout seems to mostly negate the rewarding pump (which we can elicit via other methods). Using R analogues pre workout seemed to work well for me, too. As you essentially get an overlap of insulin intra and post workout. However, timing the "meals" is a pain in the ass.

 

[bonacris]

That's understandable. I think the biggest factor is the pump. However, the risk of going hypo intra workout seems to mostly negate the rewarding pump (which we can elicit via other methods). Using R analogues pre workout seemed to work well for me, too. As you essentially get an overlap of insulin intra and post workout. However, timing the "meals" is a pain in the ass.

I like a fast acting insulin Pre and post once it's not to soon before bed. Timing of meals can be a pain but I still use the Mike Arnold 3 shake protocol and have never had any hypo issues and I go hypo without exogenous insulin. Pre workout slin is my favourite way of administration.

 

[oswaldo salcedo]

humalog nice on keto diet, but must have an ascetic discipline.

 

[BigJP]

Please for those unexperienced with insulin and or not under the guidance of a knowledgeable coach do not venture into mixing insulins. Also NEVER even mess with insulin unless you have a glucose monitor and check it very regularly. Insulin is extremely dangerous and I am not suggesting anyone use it. This thread is for educational purposes in hopes of picking the brains of some of the most knowledgeable guys here.

Before going further. Diet will be meticulous and very low fat in this scenario. I am not new to this by any means with nearly a decade of experience behind me. This will be a cycle of aas, gh and insulin

Now my question for some of the very experienced guys such as @ChestRockwell.....i have had excellent results with Lantus in the past as well as Humalog. Both run by themselves and in conjunction with each other. When used together the Lantus was a morning dose and the Humalog was split pre and post workout.

After watching a video by Porter and doing some reading I'm curious about later this year combining a single shot of Lantus upon rising along with Humalog before several meals.

I've safely used both a single 70iu shot of Lantus as well as a split dose of 35iu 2x per day. Humalog was 6iu pre workout and post workout. During this time I never captured a bg reading below 70 nor did I experience hypo symptoms.

In such an experiment, how would you suggest dosing the Lantus and Humalog? My hypothetical starting point which may be adjusted of course is as follows...

35-50iu Lantus upon rising

6iu Humalog with meals 1, 2, 3, 4.

2iu gh 3x per day

Plus aas of course
Workout would happen after meal 5, post workout shake, and a final meal before bed.

My initial thoughts would be to keep fat to an absolute minimum utilizing whey isolate, egg whites etc for protein and a mixture of fast acting carbs with slower carbs each meal. Example meal being let's say egg whites... Oats... Honey and fruit

My question comes here.....how many grams of carbs would be the suggested amount given both insulins are active in the body? Of course multiple bg checks would happen while Humalog is active and a very fast acting carb would always be on hand.

My thought was to have meal 1 be in excess of 100g carbs. Matt Porter suggests 150g. Each meal thereafter I was thinking 75-90g carbs. Given the fact of 6iu Humalog with the Lantus behind it.

My reason for 35-50iu as a starting point for Lantus is because I had no issues with 70iu but since Humalog would be added ontop of it, I feel I should draw that back a bit initially to be safe.




Also, as Matt states in the video I would be utilizing insulin and a very low fat diet for a max of 4 weeks at a time, followed by a break from the insulin and a more varied diet including red meat and such

i have run a similiar protocol to what you suggested and i would suggest being even more meticulous w food choices. oats for example have 3g fat per 1/2 cup. to me, if you care enough about your results to put all these drugs into your body, you should be meticulous enough to use only 0 fat protein and carb sources. on my rest days or non lantus days i use quinoa and oats, but on days i use lantus i switch to jasmine rice and cream of wheat, and hbcd pre and intra as my only carb sources for the day. for proteins like you said a very trust worthy and clean isolate (i use universal's ultra iso whey) and liquid whites. one or two meals would be chicken that i had clean and prepared myself so i know all the fat is trimmed. just my two cents

 

[ChestRockwell]

...if you care enough about your results to put all these drugs into your body, you should be meticulous enough to use only 0 fat protein and carb sources

I will provide a counter point, only be "meticulous" enough as is required. There is no need to be so OCD with dietary fats, even while insulin analogs are active in the system...

The exception might be scenarios where one is very sensitive and excess dietary fat suppresses rates of digestion. Otherwise, eat fat and be merry...

 

[BigJP]

I will provide a counter point, only be "meticulous" enough as is required. There is no need to be so OCD with dietary fats, even while insulin analogs are active in the system...

The exception might be scenarios where one is very sensitive and excess dietary fat suppresses rates of digestion. Otherwise, eat fat and be merry...

No need? Sure you can do whatever you want w your diet, have fat in your diet while insulin as active, do “just enough”. This gentlemen seems like he was looking to absolutely minimize the potential for fat gain while maximizing the benefits of using basal insulin, I offered my opinion on how to do so

 

[ChestRockwell]

No need? Sure you can do whatever you want w your diet, have fat in your diet while insulin as active, do “just enough”. This gentlemen seems like he was looking to absolutely minimize the potential for fat gain while maximizing the benefits of using basal insulin, I offered my opinion on how to do so

Please don't take what I wrote as an argument, it was simply meant to be a counter-point more than anything. In fact, your method can work, and it can work quite well - I've used it myself many times.

However, I do think we need to be careful as we head into fat vilification/avoidance territory. I've experimented a LOT over the years and haven't noticed any significant difference in "high" fat and "low" fat approaches alongside insulin. In fact, if I were to provide an anecdote, my most successful growth phase to date would be where I focused largely on whole day numbers and largely ignored the minutia. Success being defined as most lean mass gained while simultaneously staving off fat gain.

So, in any event, the point is that there is no single method that is going to work "best" - at least in my experience on myself and others. And, if anything, there could be an argument made that it starts to become a slippery slope when we preach "fat avoidance", even if it starts out only in the insulin active window.

 

[BigJP]

Please don't take what I wrote as an argument, it was simply meant to be a counter-point more than anything. In fact, your method can work, and it can work quite well - I've used it myself many times.

However, I do think we need to be careful as we head into fat vilification/avoidance territory. I've experimented a LOT over the years and haven't noticed any significant difference in "high" fat and "low" fat approaches alongside insulin. In fact, if I were to provide an anecdote, my most successful growth phase to date would be where I focused largely on whole day numbers and largely ignored the minutia. Success being defined as most lean mass gained while simultaneously staving off fat gain.

So, in any event, the point is that there is no single method that is going to work "best" - at least in my experience on myself and others. And, if anything, there could be an argument made that it starts to become a slippery slope when we preach "fat avoidance", even if it starts out only in the insulin active window.

dietary fats are huge, great way to get in calories and many people including myself see an increase in gains, general well being, fullness etc from fats in the diet. im not saying to avoid fats, not at all actually. im saying the days i use lantus (which i also use log on only those days) i have zero fat to avoid any chance of storing unwanted fat. to put into context i use this protocol 2x per week (upper body days to help bring everything up to match my legs) for 4 week periods. so in total its about 8 days a month and then i take 4-6 weeks away from all insulin.

if you have had success and noticed no fat gain eating dietary fats while using insulin, more power to you brother. for me personally, i have noticed a significant difference between the few insulin runs ive had with fats present compared to the several runs ive had completely eliminating fats on those days. just like with drugs and training, responses to diet protocols are going to vary. in my experience though with myself and my clients i think you may be in the minority with how your body responds to using fats while insulin is active. again, just my two cents.