Advice on dialing in primobolan: test ratio + Estrogen management

[quantumxshaman]

Just started another cycle, really wanted to introduce primo, but unsure of how to dial the ratio in at this stage.

The plan was to gradually titrate my dosages upwards/manipulate the ratio of test to primo by feeling, at least until enough time had passed to get bloodwork done I'm only a couple weeks in, but this was my protocol thus far:

Week 1: 250 mg Test E/150 mg Primo E 250 HCG EOD
Felt very good, rapid change in work capacity just within a few days. Not placebo. I feel "on" very quickly. Started to develop insomnia later in the week? Nothing too bad. Just waking up a few times a night and not being able to go back to sleep for a few minutes.. However, energy has begun to lessen.. I've started feeling very lethargic/tired despite getting adequate nutrition/rest.

Week 2: 300 mg Test E/300 mg Primo E 250 HCG EOD
changed the ratio 1:1 thinking rising E2 may be the issue
Took 6.25 mg ASIN yesterday after pinning, the insomnia seems to have lessened, but is still persistent. I'm just worried I may be confusing low e2 sides with high because I've never used primo before, and without bloodwork I'm going in blind on this. Lol. The lethargy/tiredness still hasn't lessened significantly though.

Should I just drop the primo entirely go straight to my target dose of 500 mg TEST e/ a week, wait until bloods are saturated and then gradually introduce the primo into the mix?

Some experienced advice would be appreciated

 

[Cashton]

I mean we can’t exactly tell you because we don’t know enough about the situation, bloodwork would obviously be your best bet.

you’re only on week 2 or 3 of your cycle? If so it’s likely none of the above, the hormones aren’t even in full effect yet, stop thinking about it and over analyzing it and re-evaluate week 4-5.

Edit: I don’t know how long primo takes to kick, but before I was on trt I used masteron a couple times and the most recent i started the test and mast at the same time and I feel maybe the mast kicked in first because I felt that I had low e2 symptoms, maybe it was in my head, maybe not, but the test doesn’t really start kicking for a few weeks in my experience.

 

[ludi_janez]

I think your E2 is low, the best is to do bloodwork.

 

[BackPain]

Yeah, based on my experience (which is not worth much, blood work rules!), you have low E2.

I have a similar thread where I got good input from the community on finding the proper Testrimo ratio... good for you that you are suing HCG as well. This may alleviate the low E2 symptoms caused by Primo.

 

[moivre]

Hello!
First you have to be aware of the depot part of the compound, meaning that even tough you pin e3d the same amount, the release is getting bigger and bigger.
Second, there is a ratio of primo: test that causes you to be hyper estrogenic, because it diplaces test from shbg. You can feel ok below that ratio or above that ratio.

My idea woud be to start low and remain low then up a bit, and keep upping until you pass the hellish teritory and then go high on primo to see what lies there. And titrate slowly back to desired dosing. Use steroid plotter as a helping tool.

So, what I would inferr from your exposition, you either went to high on primo, or you just have to upp the dosage further. Since now you cannot know, I would upp the dosage and see what happens. If shit happens, then drop the primo and upp the test double your normal dosage until the situation deescalates, as per your feeling and steroid plotter graphs.

Maybe you should pin more frequently and in smaller dosages when introducing new compunds. And, I am not that fresh on primabolan pharmacology, as I only have used masteron e, but I heard it is similar and I too plan to use it insead of mast to see the effects.

Have you tried mast, what is your shbg?

 

[Alphalfa]

Second, there is a ratio of primo: test that causes you to be hyper estrogenic, because it diplaces test from shbg

Where do you get that idea from? Primo can act as an AI, tanking your E2 depending on the ratio, but just the opposite of hyper estrogenic as you stated.

 

[dokdonia]

That does seem a bit quick to crash your E given the doses, inclusion of hcg and an AI ~may~ have helped a bit. Primo is generally fairly estrogen-neutral however E-lowering effects seem to cluster around poor aromatizers using relatively low T (~TRT) and high primo (400-800+). Blood test would be ideal but in absence and goal dependent you may need to come at this from both directions since you can't tell what side you are on. i.e.
- go through a process of elimination eliminating primo and/or hcg
- replace primo with another dht derivative compound (not masteron)
- add more aromatizing compound(s)
- continue with AI

 

[Toaster]

Where do you get that idea from? Primo can act as an AI, tanking your E2 depending on the ratio, but just the opposite of hyper estrogenic as you stated.

He listed the mechanism (idea) behind what he mentioned.

Are you saying he's wrong because of that? Or are you saying he's wrong because you're repeating what other people or yourself may have experienced?

I've seen both arguments at different times, so i'm just asking to expand my own knowledge.

 

[ludi_janez]

Im thinking about buying 2mg Estradiol tablets, to run primo with TRT test, and then add my own estrogen.

 

[moivre]

Where do you get that idea from? Primo can act as an AI, tanking your E2 depending on the ratio, but just the opposite of hyper estrogenic as you stated.

If masteron is more tightly bound to SHBG than test, with the dosage of masteron under test you can fill all masteron to shbg and that leaves more free test then without masteron which leads to hyperestrogenic state. If you were to increase masteron and that compound becomes free again it counteracts the estrogen production via antagonism at the ER or aromatase enzyme (not sure which one).
That is how I explain myself what happens to me when titrating masteron upwards from zero without frontloading.

 

[Alphalfa]

If masteron is more tightly bound to SHBG than test, with the dosage of masteron under test you can fill all masteron to shbg and that leaves more free test then without masteron which leads to hyperestrogenic state. If you were to increase masteron and that compound becomes free again it counteracts the estrogen production via antagonism at the ER or aromatase enzyme (not sure which one).
That is how I explain myself what happens to me when titrating masteron upwards from zero without frontloading.

What are you talking about masteron? He is talking and asking about Primobolan (Methenolone enanthate), Drostanolone is another different compound which has not been quoted here.

 

[moivre]

What are you talking about masteron? He is talking and asking about Primobolan (Methenolone enanthate), Drostanolone is another different compound which has not been quoted here.

I heard they are similar compounds. Different of course but due to similarity I would approach with the same caution ! I am thinking of replacing masteron with primo.

Do you know where can I find some binding coefficients or those indices for all the aas?

 

[Alphalfa]

I heard they are similar compounds. Different of course but due to similarity I would approach with the same caution ! I am thinking of replacing masteron with primo.

They are "completely" different compounds, both DHT derivates but their effects are not the same. Primobolan is considered more anabolic than masteron while masteron has an unique esthetic effect when you are really lean, like stanozolol does.

Primo is usually reported as an AI from a lot of people while masteron usually masks the effects of the E2 but do not affect the amount of E2 in blood.

But considering them similar to E2 management/effects, no way.

 

[MartyStouffer]

This is only my experience with Primo. I've ran this ratio the same way each time from week one to week 20.
5-600 test E/wk, 600 primo/wk. (plus typically 75mg/day Var. Currently started with 50mg dbol/day, will end with Var.)
I've never got E2 work done but, at wk 18 I got regular blood work done and only thing bad was a little high LDL. Doc wasn't too worried.
I may experience E2 problems but, I may just not realize that's what they are. Either way, I fucking Love running Primo!

 

[Toaster]

They are "completely" different compounds, both DHT derivates but their effects are not the same. Primobolan is considered more anabolic than masteron while masteron has an unique esthetic effect when you are really lean, like stanozolol does.

Primo is usually reported as an AI from a lot of people while masteron usually masks the effects of the E2 but do not affect the amount of E2 in blood.

But considering them similar to E2 management/effects, no way.

Isn't the idea behind what he's saying that SHBG will plummet with a low dose of a DHT derivative such as primo or mast? When that happens free t will rise leading to more aromatization at the same testosterone dose?

This phenomenon seems to occur only at the low end of dosages.

Once again, I have no idea only repeating what I've read.

 

[Alphalfa]

Isn't the idea behind what he's saying that SHBG will plummet with a low dose of a DHT derivative such as primo or mast? When that happens free t will rise leading to more aromatization at the same testosterone dose?

This phenomenon seems to occur only at the low end of dosages.

Once again, I have no idea only repeating what I've read.

I think I have tried to explain it quite well.

Methenolone, wheter it is enanthate(Primo) or another ester, is reported by most people to lower their E2, that is acting as an Aromatase Inhibitor. That is why a lot of people do not recommended running Testosterone with Methenolone in ratio 1:1 or smaller, because there are high risk of tanking E2 with an equal ratio or even slighty elevated testosterone over the Methenolone.

If it acts as an AI, how is that going to lead you to an hyperestrogenic state? Just the opposite.

And about the SHBG, almost all AAS reduce it, even on high-end TRT doses there is a decrease, specially orals. When using AAS on blast, SHBG is not going to be that relevant with the amount of AAS you will be using.
And the effect of binding to SHBG is usually more a thing of Proviron(Mesterolone) than Drostanolone(Masteron).
So for me his thoughts do not make any sense since it would be not relevant to that degree, especially when blasting.
And thinking that they are "similar compounds" just because they are DHT derivates, just non sense..

 

[Toaster]

I think I have tried to explain it quite well.

Methenolone, wheter it is enanthate(Primo) or another ester, is reported by most people to lower their E2, that is acting as an Aromatase Inhibitor. That is why a lot of people do not recommended running Testosterone with Methenolone in ratio 1:1 or smaller, because there are high risk of tanking E2 with an equal ratio or even slighty elevated testosterone over the Methenolone.

If it acts as an AI, how is that going to lead you to an hyperestrogenic state? Just the opposite.

And about the SHBG, almost all AAS reduce it, even on high-end TRT doses there is a decrease, specially orals. When using AAS on blast, SHBG is not going to be that relevant with the amount of AAS you will be using.
And the effect of binding to SHBG is usually more a thing of Proviron(Mesterolone) than Drostanolone(Masteron).
So for me his thoughts do not make any sense since it would be not relevant to that degree, especially when blasting.
And thinking that they are "similar compounds" just because they are DHT derivates, just non sense..

Just as many people report no AI effect from Primo. Doesn't seem to be a universal effect.

He also stated that the effects he mentioned were specific to a certain ratio. The guy originally posting started out using 250/150 test/primo. I could see his theory being plausible at those doses.

Anyhow you're arguing this as if Primo is 100% an AI that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Alphalfa]

Just as many people report no AI effect from Primo. Doesn't seem to be a universal effect.

He also stated that the effects he mentioned were specific to a certain ratio. The guy originally posting started out using 250/150 test/primo. I could see his theory being plausible at those doses.

Anyhow you're arguing this as if Primo is 100% an AI that doesn't seem to be the case.

Sure, go ahead.

@quantumxshaman , get an E2 lab test and solve this shit, it is easy, cheap and quick.

 

[BlindPetey]

Just stumbled on this. I am running ~200 mg test weekly pinning EOD and Primo 800 weekly pinning same schedule. I got my bloodwork to find out my Estrogen was 152. Test was at 1060.

I am adding an AI now but surprised to see such high estrogen with this cycle.

 

[Jet Labs]

Im thinking about buying 2mg Estradiol tablets, to run primo with TRT test, and then add my own estrogen.

What the fuck