Testosterone without estrogen. Is it still anabolic?

[UnProblemaComun]

2 years ago i ran a test e 300mg and tren ace 210mg cycle (experimental permablast). My e2 was at 40 with help of aromasin. I continue taking tren but stopped test for 6 weeks and lost 7lbs.
I was feeling flat and had no pump and didn't feel good mentally. I was depressed and tired all the time and libido was non exist. No motivation and lost a lot of strength.
Did another bw and my e2 was at 7.
I added 1mg oral estradiol valerate a day alongside my tren and after ~ 4 days my mood improved significantly. Flatness and tiredness goes away after 10 days but i was holding too much water(add 5 lbs) and my nipples started to get itchy and puffy. Did another blood and my e2 was at 88. So I cut the estradiol pills in half which is equal to 0.5mg estradiol valerate and take half a pill ed.
In a week I lost 1-2 lbs of water but I was pumped all day and feeling so good. I gained my size and strength back. Actually I look and felt a lot better with tren+estradiol compared to tren+test.
After one month i did another blood and my e2 was ~35.

I have a question:

We all know that when there's zero/very low level of estrogen, test itself doesn't provide any benefits. Just like when you crash your e2 with AI

So aren't benefits from testosterone because of T>E2 conversion ?
How anabolic is testosterone (without estrogen and its metabolites).

 

[All Nats McGee]

I would say nothing is anabolic without estrogen. Sure you might put on a little bit but without normal levels of E2 you will go flat and accumulate very little muscle.

Dbol is very anabolic not only because of the androgens but because of it’s bizarre estrogen profile.

High levels of progesterone could be used like in deca/tren only cycle and you’ll grow slowly without E2. If you were to add 10mg dbol it would be a game changer imo. Also progesterone isn’t as anabolic as estrogen.

 

[grey]

We all know that when there's zero/very low level of estrogen, test itself doesn't provide any benefits.

This simply isn't true. You are conflating a bunch of things here.

Low estrogen or totally crashed estrogen has negative effects but they are in no way comparable to simply having no test in you.


Is it better to NOT have permanently crashed E2? Yes. Not the same thing you are positing at all.

 

[Rido]

idk why anyone would want little estrogen. Brb feeling like shit for no reason

 

[UnProblemaComun]

This simply isn't true. You are conflating a bunch of things here.

Low estrogen or totally crashed estrogen has negative effects but they are in no way comparable to simply having no test in you.


Is it better to NOT have permanently crashed E2? Yes. Not the same thing you are positing at all.

Yes testosterone is necessary for lots of body functions. But I'm talking about an environment which test or any other androgen won't provide in absence of estrogen.

 

[taco33150]

First problem I see is no test and still continue with tren only

 

[VenomYo]

I would say nothing is anabolic without estrogen. Sure you might put on a little bit but without normal levels of E2 you will go flat and accumulate very little muscle.

Dbol is very anabolic not only because of the androgens but because of it’s bizarre estrogen profile.

High levels of progesterone could be used like in deca/tren only cycle and you’ll grow slowly without E2. If you were to add 10mg dbol it would be a game changer imo. Also progesterone isn’t as anabolic as estrogen.

hmpff, well now, you make it sound a little bit too good to be true

 

[UnProblemaComun]

I would say nothing is anabolic without estrogen. Sure you might put on a little bit but without normal levels of E2 you will go flat and accumulate very little muscle.

Dbol is very anabolic not only because of the androgens but because of it’s bizarre estrogen profile.

High levels of progesterone could be used like in deca/tren only cycle and you’ll grow slowly without E2. If you were to add 10mg dbol it would be a game changer imo. Also progesterone isn’t as anabolic as estrogen.

This is what i understand from running no/low aromatizable AAS's.

I ran dht's, deca,eq and bunch of other things on their own.
They all work but once I supplement with some estradiol, hcg or a low dose of aromatizable AAS, they work a lot better.
I tried mast only with insulin for 4 weeks and was disappointed. Then added 5mg dbol and ran the combo for another 4 weeks and I blow up compared to the first 4 weeks.
Insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body but without estrogen won't do much.

 

[All Nats McGee]

hmpff, well now, you make it sound a little bit too good to be true

Care to explain in more detail?

 

[Big_paul]

Speaking from trial and error, you should maintain normal e2 levels.

Years ago for no other reason than I knew no better, I ran tren only with few results.

At least you are staying on top of your labs. Think of it as a learning experience.

 

[Dr JIM]

This simply isn't true. You are conflating a bunch of things here.

Low estrogen or totally crashed estrogen has negative effects but they are in no way comparable to simply having no test in you.


Is it better to NOT have permanently crashed E2? Yes. Not the same thing you are positing at all.

When did estrogen become THE required substrate for male or female anabolism .......NUTS

Who are these noobs listening to, bc they sure aren't reading and/or understanding evidence based data.

Labs such as E-2 and TT should be used establish a baseline and trends, the latter of which, whether high or low, must be correlated with objective signs and symptoms.

And with few exceptions, ancillaries such as AI's, SERM's, DRA's should be reserved for those instances when signs/symptoms correlate with blood level trends.
That being said bc of fluid shifts, protein binding, AAS half life and metabolic perturbations, conducting and interpreting labs almost always create more confusion than comfort in beginner cyclists..

 

[Type-IIx]

When did estrogen become THE required substrate for male or female anabolism .......NUTS

Who are these noobs listening to, bc they sure aren't reading and/or understanding evidence based data.

Labs such as E-2 and TT should be used establish a baseline and trends, the latter of which, whether high or low, must be correlated with objective signs and symptoms.

And with few exceptions, ancillaries such as AI's, SERM's, DRA's should be reserved for those instances when signs/symptoms correlate with blood level trends.
That being said bc of fluid shifts, protein binding, AAS half life and metabolic perturbations, conducting and interpreting labs almost always create more confusion than comfort in beginner cyclists..

VigorousSteve (A YouTube n=1 FEELZ guy that snorts intranasal oxytocin preworkout), Reddit & Excel Male forums are major purveyors of these delusions, but it's definitely spread to the boards now as well.

There is no focus on objectivity nor trends, symptomology has been reduced to subjective measures nigh absolutely. "Ratio optimization" dogma and subjective measures like energy & libido reign supreme in this brave new world.

Nobody cycles anymore either, most cruise at a mean dose of 250 mg T weekly in between blasts up to 5,000 mg weekly total androgen (dose adjustments [never cessation] guided only by normalization of endocrine parameters) and US clinics prescribe these TRT doses or even higher.

 

[Dr JIM]

Like alcohol the use of PEDs in those with mental health disorders, is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[LSDPowerlifting]

That was some real nice pointless shit you guys added