Experienced insulin users

[Mac11wildcat]

So in this case, how do you choose the meals where you will put the insulin and those where you don't?

Timing. I try to make that be every other meal at worst to make sure I’m not:
1. Perpetually hitting my receptors with insulin
2. That I’m not using unnecessary amounts of exogenous insulin

This also should mesh with where GH is administered. If you’re taking GH 1x a day that’s simple, but if multiple administrations insulin should follow it.

 

[Jaxino]

So in this case, how do you choose the meals where you will put the insulin and those where you don't?

It's pretty much "standard" or read it as "BROSTANDARD"

With Log or R insulins:
-(Meal 1)
-with Pre WO meal
(have an intrawo with 30-50g HBCD + 10-20g EAA + 1-2g SALT + 750-1,5lt water)
-with Post WO meal

Usually are the best timing, because of tons of reasons, more recovery anabolism, it's good stuff anyway.
If you want the details do some research.
Alex Kikel wrote a lot about that.

About the HGH timing, i never noticed any big differences in glucose readings, so shoot your HGH when you are comfortable, ideally first thing am and before bed.

Do some research about how various insulin work (LOG, R, LANTUS) and then start slowly, going hypo while driving can be very unpleasant for your life.

 

[Eup]

Speaking from minimal experience it definitely works but you have to cover all bases. I'll tell you what I'm running for comparison and a recent pic (2.5 weeks old)

Eod 1cc t400 1cc tren ace and either 1 cc primo(200mgs) or 1cc eq(300mgs)
1 anadrol per day (50mgs trouche)
12ius opti grey EOD
LOG with meals (standard 6ius most meals up to 14ius big meals and that's the highest I've gone)

Dunno what I weigh I will say size and strength gains are there and consistent and highly dependant on how much I eat.

I seem to recover in hours not days. It's awesome.

Recently I stopped everything after developing CVG (lines in scalp, which was why I took the picture) and in the last week or so the CVG almost totally went away. As of three days ago I'm back on 100% and I expect the CVG will return and it is what it is. I'm a bodybuilder, aka an addict....

Please forgive the woolly Mammoth like back hair but at least no bacne. And of course the lovely skin folds onView attachment 172616 the back of my head. You asked for a pic.

This brings interesting questions about your head wrinkles. I'm getting veins in my forehead by my temple like squiggly lines like you get on your arms and they stick out a bit like I'm always looking angry they do get bigger when I get angry...LOL Does anyone feel like the GH has caused exacerbated issues like wrinkles, veins long-term users ect.... like I do?

 

[CooSee]

in the past, ive tried various different approach.
the typical bolus pre workout one with intra carbs etc. The typical bolus post workout one before a shake etc.
nowadays, i cycle my training doing phases where i more or less "cruise" and phases where i "blast" my training.
blasting is usually Tuesday/Wednes twice a day, thursday once, friday-sunday twice (weights) around 50-60min but pretty intense. this "blasting" phase is usually 4-6 weeks long.
What ive found is doing a very small amount of slin with my meals helps me immensly recovering during this "blasting" period. I usually do 2-3 iu 3-4 times a day with meals. Training performance is up, recovery time is down. no bloat or fat gain

+1 on the reduction in bloat. After 1.5 years of GH at around 3iu per day average (pharma), I added lantus and it seems to really help me assimilate the food. I don't have to work to keep my gut from bulging after meals on high carb days. The lantus I'm running (for 8 weeks now a few days a week) sat in my mailbox on a 105 degree day so likely is degraded a lot, so I'm not sharing my lantus dosage here until I get my next batch in cooler weather. Def. check your glucose with a monitor for at least a week, several times a day pre and post meals before starting slin. IMO, slin is very beneficial if you need it, but not everyone needs it. For example someone who is doing lower dose GH, is less than 30 years old, or checks their glucose and it's regularly below 90 fasted in the morning, they probably don't need it so using it would unnecessarily complicate things and of course there are risks (mis dosing and insulin resistance if you use a ton). I also think there are major genetic factors which should be considered when one is determining if insulin will help them. Ever know people who tend to be fat (endomorphs)? Well, that means their body is pretty happy to store shit (fat, nitrogen, salt, everything). Ever know people who tend to be really skinny, like, the more they eat, the more they shit and that's it? The latter I would argue will benefit from insulin usage far more than the former. That said, when it comes to dosages, protocols, how to pair with carbs, risks, etc., Vigorous Steve's e-book on insulin is excellent.

 

[Jaxino]

+1 on the reduction in bloat. After 1.5 years of GH at around 3iu per day average (pharma), I added lantus and it seems to really help me assimilate the food. I don't have to work to keep my gut from bulging after meals on high carb days. The lantus I'm running (for 8 weeks now a few days a week) sat in my mailbox on a 105 degree day so likely is degraded a lot, so I'm not sharing my lantus dosage here until I get my next batch in cooler weather. Def. check your glucose with a monitor for at least a week, several times a day pre and post meals before starting slin. IMO, slin is very beneficial if you need it, but not everyone needs it. For example someone who is doing lower dose GH, is less than 30 years old, or checks their glucose and it's regularly below 90 fasted in the morning, they probably don't need it so using it would unnecessarily complicate things and of course there are risks (mis dosing and insulin resistance if you use a ton). I also think there are major genetic factors which should be considered when one is determining if insulin will help them. Ever know people who tend to be fat (endomorphs)? Well, that means their body is pretty happy to store shit (fat, nitrogen, salt, everything). Ever know people who tend to be really skinny, like, the more they eat, the more they shit and that's it? The latter I would argue will benefit from insulin usage far more than the former. That said, when it comes to dosages, protocols, how to pair with carbs, risks, etc., Vigorous Steve's e-book on insulin is excellent.

Lantus in high doses (40+IU) DAILY will ruin your insulin sensitivity badly and very fast.
It doesn't help your pancreas since you just inhibit the feedback loop and occupies glut-4 all time.
Try this:
Don't use any Lantus test your fasted glucose, same day first thing am inject 20iu Lantus, test your fasted glucose next morning, same food same everything, you glucose will be 10points higher.
You inhibit the feedback loop, which will restart as soon as the insulin will go out from your system, but still.
If you have an healthy pancreas why shutting it down? You do that if you have T2DM, then i understand.

The book from Steve has a lot of broscience and WebMD guru stories, his experience is based on a guy that did CKD and had millions of clients that none has ever seen.

The best way i saw to use Lantus was 1-2 times a week on lacking body parts and high carb days, you can stay on that protocol forever without destroying your insulin resistance. (Mike Arnold explained that extensively)

For the rest i think that fast acting insulin (Humalog, Apidra, Novolog) should be used after Prewo meal and after Postwo meal.
Imho Prewo is the best moment since you can load the shit out of Hbcd and EAA and train.

If you sum up the doses (let's say you train 5 times a week) you will be running something like:
10iu Humalog + 10iu Humalog 5 times a week
40iu Lantus 2 times a week
It's like 20iu exogenous insulin a day.

Those are very low doses for insulin since you inhibited the feedback loop and you need to cover the carbs with exogenous insulin, add also HGH and the doses will climb up even more.

Maybe i am all wrong but that's what I try and found working really well. Ofc results won't come over night.

 

[Diesel power]

I will try to make this short as possible, best way for me anyway! 10iu rapid first thing in morning, within 15 minutes 60g whey 50g sugar carbs 25g oats. Within 60-90 minutes later 8-10 eggs with beans or noodles. 60-90 later gym for 1.5 hours , home 10iu rapid 7iu gh , all daily supplements with creatine and anabolic aas, whey shake , glucose and banana, 60-90 minutes later full carb high protein meal . Rest of the day low carbohydrate high protein food. I’m running 400mg test 600 tren e 450 deca ew 50 var ed. not gaining any fat really, strength and size is stupidly off scale for me anyway. Veins look like a 1980s roadmap…. Obviously I started at lower doses and worked up to current

 

[whoremoan1]

i have never used insulin
can someone tell me what it feels like going hypo?
what do first stages feel like? what are the early warnings?
and how much time do you have to get sugar or simple carbs in ?
in all seriousness how easy is it to die ? like can it happen that quick that your fucked? or do you have time to save yourself lol ?

 

[malfeasance]

You start feeling dizzy and hot and start sweating. You might start feeling confused. You have a lot longer than most folks think to start getting sugar in. Don't panic. Better yet, keep fast acting sugars on hand any time you are using insulin, until the window is closed. Literally glucose tabs and Gatorade or pineapple juice to drink down in an emergency avoids any problem in minutes.

Dying is not likely at all unless you are just really, really bad at math. This fear is overhyped. I mean, it has happened, sure, but it's not common (like bodybuilders dying of heart conditions is) and it takes a very serious mistake to cause death.

But if you are not sure whether you are going hypo, then you aren't. You will know it for damn sure when it happens.

 

[Flex22]

I’ve used insulin many times the last 3-4 years. While reading previous posts from this thread, what both Menu and Jaxino have said is correct and good info as wel. To this day I’m always learning more and new stuff about the subject. I highly recommend One of the best most informational books I’ve read to help me comprehend insulin and nutrition usage and how to use it is by; Justin Harris “Comrephensive Performance Nutrition”. He explains how it’s users and the science and facts with it, not the “bro science” you hear contradicting stuff.
So IMO and what I have gotten the best results from is using a fast slin like humalog or
humlin-R. Use it with your biggest meals of the day to help with nutrition. For me that was with my breakfast meal, preworkout, and whatever my biggest meal of day is which is usually my meal I eat and hour after my workout. For me that would be 5-7iu w/ meals and 10-12iu preworkout. Now another trick thing I learned is using Lantus only twice a week and those days that i use it im doin either a body part im trying to bring up or a large body part like legs or back. When I use the Lantus I started at 20iu and worked way up to 30iu but didn’t go over that because im still using the log in those days as well.
With my gh protocol I’ve always had best results doing 3-4iu pre-bed and 3-4iu 2 hours preworkout. Remeber gh has a long half life And it reaches its highest peak 3-3.5 hours after inject.
Remeber to always start low jus like anything you first start using and increase slowly and only if it’s needed. I oknly increase anything once it’s stalls or plateaus. And like multiple people have already said in the thread you MUST MUST be 100% on point and strict with your diet. It’s easy to get fat and overeat while using slin. DO NOT bombard your body right away, progress slowly. And last thing I’ll say here is place the skin into your diet where it fits. Don’t eat or adjust to the slin.

 

[Jaxino]

I think that we also have to add that Insulin is not really a game changer, it just adds a 5% to a cycle, when having a good diet and good workout routine will give you much more.

PEDS wise i think that:
1) AAS
2) HGH 5iu+
3) Insulin

At least this was my experience.

If you want some more insight about the big picture just read Justin Harris book, COMPRENSIVE PERFORMANCE NUTRITION: VOLUME 2.
The books has really a lot of good information about peds, nutrition, training.

 

[malfeasance]

I love how folks throw out, "It just adds 5%" like that is nothing.

Think about your last high dosage AAS cycle with lots of hgh, how you were swelling up and growing, and stuffing yourself with calories, and weights were going up . . . then add 5% more!

That is a game changer.

Insulin works well if it is done correctly. Otherwise, it would not be used.

 

[Jaxino]

I love how folks throw out, "It just adds 5%" like that is nothing.

Think about your last high dosage AAS cycle with lots of hgh, how you were swelling up and growing, and stuffing yourself with calories, and weights were going up . . . then add 5% more!

That is a game changer.

Insulin works well if it is done correctly. Otherwise, it would not be used.

What about the word "EXAMPLE"?

It's just an example.... man... we are not at a symposium at MIT university.

 

[Para_33]

Completely depends on what type of insulin.

 

[whoremoan1]

Completely depends on what type of insulin.

novorapid ?

 

[Para_33]

novorapid ?

I’ve found the rapid types to be more useful post workout when your diet can afford to have a large amount of carbs in your calorie allotment. To help shuttle nutrients in. Particularly in a cutting phase, this is the only time I find rapid/regular insulin to be useful.

Even when cutting in a -900 + deficit, I’m still able to intake about 300g carbs, and that’s a fair/ decently high amount for a hard diet. I’m doing an hour of cardio or greater on these days- so energy expenditure is high. And the only benefit I find to using rapid/regular during this phase is in the post workout high carb meal- since I’ll be eating a slightly greater portion of my daily food post workout prior to sleep.

In a cutting phase- even when I eat 80-90g carbs in my pre workout meal with 60g protein and 8-9g fat, I can’t even use 1iu per 20g of carb without the blood sugar dropping lower than I want during my workout. I suppose I could go to 1iu per 30g carb but I don’t see much point. I’d rather a lot my insulin use to my post workout meal with 80-90g carb to increase igf1 due to the post workout gh rrlease and the high insulin presence being favorable to igf1 production in the liver and muscle tissue itself.


In an off-season context this is another story- however even still- I tend to only use rapid in my meals that’s are not pre workout window or I will get low during my workout even with intra workout carbs. I use IGF1 LR3 which also contributed to this. So I can’t even use much. So In an off-season context- until I get truely huge and am using 1000g carbs per day, then I’d use it more.

However even now at 190lb 6Ish % body fat I still would use it just after the workout or maybe earlier in the day longer before my late afternoon workouts.


Lantus is another story though- I use that constantly off-season or during prep because it even helps with anti catabolic effects. Lantus/ long insulin is almost like another thing all together. I even like the” N “ type Isophane insulin you can buy over the counter- I just split it up into 2 shots subq in place of my single Lantus shot.

Using rapid/regular preworkout I only see as being useful if someone is resistant somehow still in their prep phase- or they’re really shoving down the carbs all day long during the peak of their off-season growth phase. Even then, like said I almost always only use after the workout to rapidly shuttle in the good stuff into the muscle/ (nutrient partitioning).

If using HGH, I see more use for Lantus more of the time. But insulin overall is just a much more technical compound, and can be used incorrectly/counter productively much easier unlike Testosterone and other steroid hormones.


That said, I don’t think I would have exploded in the way I did without both R insulin and Lantus.

 

[whoremoan1]

I’ve found the rapid types to be more useful post workout when your diet can afford to have a large amount of carbs in your calorie allotment. To help shuttle nutrients in. Particularly in a cutting phase, this is the only time I find rapid/regular insulin to be useful.

Even when cutting in a -900 + deficit, I’m still able to intake about 300g carbs, and that’s a fair/ decently high amount for a hard diet. I’m doing an hour of cardio or greater on these days- so energy expenditure is high. And the only benefit I find to using rapid/regular during this phase is in the post workout high carb meal- since I’ll be eating a slightly greater portion of my daily food post workout prior to sleep.

In a cutting phase- even when I eat 80-90g carbs in my pre workout meal with 60g protein and 8-9g fat, I can’t even use 1iu per 20g of carb without the blood sugar dropping lower than I want during my workout. I suppose I could go to 1iu per 30g carb but I don’t see much point. I’d rather a lot my insulin use to my post workout meal with 80-90g carb to increase igf1 due to the post workout gh rrlease and the high insulin presence being favorable to igf1 production in the liver and muscle tissue itself.


In an off-season context this is another story- however even still- I tend to only use rapid in my meals that’s are not pre workout window or I will get low during my workout even with intra workout carbs. I use IGF1 LR3 which also contributed to this. So I can’t even use much. So In an off-season context- until I get truely huge and am using 1000g carbs per day, then I’d use it more.

However even now at 190lb 6Ish % body fat I still would use it just after the workout or maybe earlier in the day longer before my late afternoon workouts.


Lantus is another story though- I use that constantly off-season or during prep because it even helps with anti catabolic effects. Lantus/ long insulin is almost like another thing all together. I even like the” N “ type Isophane insulin you can buy over the counter- I just split it up into 2 shots subq in place of my single Lantus shot.

Using rapid/regular preworkout I only see as being useful if someone is resistant somehow still in their prep phase- or they’re really shoving down the carbs all day long during the peak of their off-season growth phase. Even then, like said I almost always only use after the workout to rapidly shuttle in the good stuff into the muscle/ (nutrient partitioning).

If using HGH, I see more use for Lantus more of the time. But insulin overall is just a much more technical compound, and can be used incorrectly/counter productively much easier unlike Testosterone and other steroid hormones.


That said, I don’t think I would have exploded in the way I did without both R insulin and Lantus.

Amazing post
I’m not as advanced as you guys and still learning , but I thought have pre workout would be much better as it shuttles all nutrients into muscles, then you also get an awesome pump , and also replenish after workout with more carbs so you kind of hit 2 birds with one stone ? Instead of solely replenishing after workout ?

 

[Para_33]

Amazing post
I’m not as advanced as you guys and still learning , but I thought have pre workout would be much better as it shuttles all nutrients into muscles, then you also get an awesome pump , and also replenish after workout with more carbs so you kind of hit 2 birds with one stone ? Instead of solely replenishing after workout ?

Thanks, I’ve learned a huge portion of what I know from Vigorous Steve’s insulin ebook.

However now that I’ve implemented this myself over time I have bits of individual experience to add.

I agree with you that there is a huge benefit to using insulin preworkout. However this only usually works for me in an off-season context in a larger caloric surplus because I almost almost go hypo when I do this in a cutting phase. Say I consume 70g carbs in my pre workout meal 1.5 hours before training, one would shoot for 1 iu for 10-20g of carbs as their dose, however in this phase even 1 iu per 30g carbs sends me hypo during my workout and I lose strength actually. Using IGF1LR3 might play a huge role in this, but I’ve also had the same thing happen to me again recently when I tried to use insulin pre workout in my prep even without the LR3.

I suppose I could do an even lower insulin dose, but I don’t see much point to it at this time because I already get pumps that are to the point where they already almost inhibit my movement, and any further would like make it so I could hardly put my arms down. Like that kid in the movie A Christmas story. Like a tick about to pop, and that’s without insulin haha.

In terms of shutting in nutrients, the post workout time period is when muscle is most primed to not only uptake all the good stuff from the blood, but will actually make use of it then because all of the stimulus from muscle stretching-burn- pump- motor unit recruitment etc have all just put the muscle in a state where they can utilize the nutrients/food being shuttled in. And I figure delaying that by only 45 minutes or so by taking insulin with my post workout meal with carbs is a negligible amount of time.

For me to use it pre workout in a cutting phase I’d had to up my carbs and thus calories more than would be conducive to fat loss in order to not go hypo and feel weak as hell when training. As it is dropping body fat and being in a deficit hinders workout as it is.

___________

All of this changes in an off-season context when the calories are already very high. If I can utilize insulin in some dose that isn’t super minuscule pre workout without going hypo, then I for sure will and do use this protocol.

The only thing is I just find in real world experience, is during a cutting phase, I’m not actually able to use it pre workout without going hypo. Intra workout carbs are great, but again the cutting phase is about prioritizing fat loss, and if I can’t a lot those extra calories of intra workout carbs, than I’m going to have to sacrifice that extra bit of hyperplasia/hypertrophy that would be gained by using insulin pre workout in a cutting phase/prep.

Again, this changes in an off season phase when growth is the priority, and thus carbs/calories can be increased to utilize the insulin without going hypo.

 

[whoremoan1]

great post
so when your dieting, whats your carbs like around workout and slin dosage after workout ?

so for bulking would it be better to do pre and post and lower the dosage of slin to prevent going hypo and also enough to shuttle all carbs ?

or is it better to have that one big hit of insulin either before or after workout?

 

[Piromanu87]

I never used insulin, but i like Justin Harris aproach to it. Look into it.
You dont adjust your diet to insulin.
You first set up your diet and add insulin after, based on your carbs for those meals. You gradually up it to see how much you need.

 

[whoremoan1]

I never used insulin, but i like Justin Harris aproach to it. Look into it.
You dont adjust your diet to insulin.
You first set up your diet and add insulin after, based on your carbs for those meals. You gradually up it to see how much you need.

yeh ive seen some of his stuff and agree with that approach
i havent used either but researching
just still trying to figure best places to put it too , pre or post etc
and especially dont ever want to go hypo