Low Blood Pressure Heart Attacks Heart Failure and Death

There haven't been any regression clinical trials using non-statin monotherapies because it wouldn't pass an ethical review.

Statins are immediately prescribed when arteriosclerosis is diagnosed with imaging. It's the gold standard, first line treatment to reduce risk of heart attacks and strokes quickly. Typical "scramble after the problem hits a crisis point" approach of conventional medicine, unfortunately. Get that calcified cap on asap is the approach, which is fair in the sense it definitely reduces risk, but surely reducing buildup before that point would've been preferable.

The pursuit of maximum regression is something that's taken a backseat to absolute risk reduction in those with high risk factors for an imminent harm.

You'd have to find a large group of patients diagnosed with arteriosclerosis, and take them off statins for a year or more, exposing them to a potential heart attack or stroke to test a theory.

The reference to non-statin monotherapies not showing regression is because those therapies don't reach the 40% reduction+sub 70 LDL that seem to be the threshold needed for it to start. PCSK9's are the only ones capable of doing that, and haven't been used as monotherapies where arteriosclerosis is established, just as hyperlipidemia treatment (so the necessary artery imaging that would catch regression isn't been done, but it could be happening, very likely imo).

However, plenty of studies and meta analysis have concluded that regression is a function of a large degree of LDL reduction and low LDL level, however it's achieved, and not the statin itself.

Sabatine MS et al., NEJM 2017 — GLAGOV Trial


Evolocumab and Clinical Outcomes in Patients with Cardiovascular Disease


“The degree of atheroma volume regression correlated directly with the magnitude of LDL cholesterol lowering, regardless of the lipid-lowering agent used. This finding supports the concept that it is the level of LDL cholesterol achieved, rather than the class of drug, that determines the extent of atherosclerotic regression.”

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Ridker PM et al., Circulation 2020

LDL cholesterol lowering and plaque regression: A meta-analysis


“Our meta-analysis demonstrated that atherosclerotic plaque regression is strongly and linearly related to the achieved LDL cholesterol level, independent of the specific lipid-lowering therapy used. This highlights LDL cholesterol as the critical therapeutic target.”

--------


Libby P et al., Journal of the American College of Cardiology (JACC), 2019

Mechanisms of Plaque Regression and Stabilization

“Imaging studies consistently show that the extent of plaque regression depends primarily on the degree of LDL cholesterol reduction achieved, rather than on the particular pharmacological agent employed. Statins have additional anti-inflammatory benefits but the principal determinant of regression is LDL lowering.”
 
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There haven't been any regression clinical trials using non-statin monotherapies because it wouldn't pass an ethical review.

However, plenty of studies and meta analysis have concluded that regression is a function of a large degree of LDL reduction and low LDL level, however it's achieved, and not the statin itself.

I have seen those studies and have even comment on the sample population as well when I was looking for PSCK9 regression studies.


However all the studies you cited show is a strong positive correlation whereby a lower LDL shows regression. It does not show that it is the primary driver or determinant. Without any actual studies on non-statin mono-therapies, we cannot conclusive say that.

If all studies use a statin, we cannot say that the effects are not from the use of it and how it works, but rather from the result of it.

All we can say that it is highly correlated and that (low LDL+Statin) drives regression but we do not know if the same can be seen about simply low LDL.
 
bempodoic acid (not a fan)
Would love to know the reasoning on this. Not saying you're wrong, genuinely curious.

In my research it seems like a fantastic drug. Counteracts AAS induced erythropoiesis which is a huge problem for many users here, lowers CRP, doesn't cause tendon rupture (the incidents shown in studies was almost certainly by the statins alongside), possibly improves metabolic function as opposed to statins.

Definitely not nearly as strong as a PCSK9 or statin, but for those of us who can use it, not sure why we wouldn't.

I have incredibly high hyperlipidemia, 180-250 LDL untreated and a corresponding ApoB. Ezetimibe brings it down to 100 (hyperresponder for sure), bempedoic acid plops me into the 60s for LDL and sub 60 ApoB. HDL 60-75, trigs in the 30s while running 300-400mg of AAS.

Can't see a reason to add a statin, and if I ever did add anything it would be a PCSK9 but just don't see a reason to.
 
I'll also double tap by mentioning I am on the younger side of this forum, totally acknowledge plaque stabilizing effects of statins for those with preexisting plaque, which I have confirmed I have none of.
 
Would love to know the reasoning on this. Not saying you're wrong, genuinely curious.

In my research it seems like a fantastic drug. Counteracts AAS induced erythropoiesis which is a huge problem for many users here, lowers CRP, doesn't cause tendon rupture (the incidents shown in studies was almost certainly by the statins alongside), possibly improves metabolic function as opposed to statins.

Definitely not nearly as strong as a PCSK9 or statin, but for those of us who can use it, not sure why we wouldn't.

I have incredibly high hyperlipidemia, 180-250 LDL untreated and a corresponding ApoB. Ezetimibe brings it down to 100 (hyperresponder for sure), bempedoic acid plops me into the 60s for LDL and sub 60 ApoB. HDL 60-75, trigs in the 30s while running 300-400mg of AAS.

Can't see a reason to add a statin, and if I ever did add anything it would be a PCSK9 but just don't see a reason to.

I think you're asking about bempedoic acid?

I'm approaching this from a long term use, longevity perspective, and this is the reasoning for my use case:

Plaque regression is my initial goal, then complete cessation of any further buildup by maintaining LDL 20-30, without inducing sides or causing other health damage in the process.

(Another factor in my case are elevated lipids that went unaddressed for years, so despite a 0 calcium score, the presence of plaque is certain.).

Pitavaststin 4, Ezetimebe, and PCSK9 reduce LDL by ~85%.

At 160, that brings my LDL to ~24. That's well within the range plaque regression occurs in almost everyone.

Bemp, at the most would bring it down another 10% to a total reduction 95%, resulting in LDL of 8. (Let's assume lower is still better, proven down to 20, and ignore the uncertainty of single digit LDL impacts on cognition that have been suggested).

That's an inconsequential benefit for the reduced collagen turnover Bemp causes endangering tendons. While the problem affects .5% of users overall, 1 in 200, that risk rises with age (and again I'm talking long term use), and the risk rises with increased strain or trauma.

The other 3 compounds have very low side effect risk, which don't rise over time, and the most likely ones are easily reversed unlike the permanent damage of a blown achilles tendon because I got a little too ambitious or had an accident.

PS: I get muscle pain on other statins(tried 3), no matter how low the dose, and would never have considered using another until I found Pitavastatin, which gives me no sides at the max dose. Statin intolerance like this is also an indicator of greater tendon risk from Bemp. I was disappointed, because Eze/bemp are available as a combo tab, so it wouldn't increase pill count and without the tendon issue, would've been a "freebie" I'd happily add to the stack. For the most part, the evidence shows no floor for LDL benefits. The people with genetic mutations that give them 0 LDL have the lowest rates of heart attacks and strokes of any group.
 
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I think you're asking about bempedoic acid?

I'm approaching this from a long term use, longevity perspective, and this is the reasoning for my use case:

Plaque regression is my initial goal, then complete cessation of any further buildup by maintaining LDL 20-30, without inducing sides or causing other health damage in the process.

(Another factor in my case are elevated lipids that went unaddressed for years, so despite a 0 calcium score, the presence of plaque is certain.).

Pitavaststin 4, Ezetimebe, and PCSK9 reduce LDL by ~85%.

At 160, that brings my LDL to ~24.

Bemp, at the most would bring it down another 10% to a total reduction 95%, resulting in LDL of 8. (Let's assume lower is still better, proven down to 20, and ignore the uncertainty of single digit LDL impacts in cognition that have been suggested).

That's an inconsequential benefit for the reduced collagen turnover Bemp causes endangering tendons. While the problem affects .5% of users overall, 1 in 200, that risk rises with age (and again I'm taking long term use), and the risk rises with increased strain or trauma.

The other 3 compounds have very low side effect risk, which don't rise over time, and the most likely ones are easily reversed unlike the permanent damage of a blown achilles tendon because I got a little too ambitious and had an accident.
Yes, was referring to bempedoic acid.

Totally get it in your case, I just took your note regarding "bempedoic acid (not a fan)" to be a broader non-endorsement of it compared to other lipid lowering medications. I think it is fairly certain that it has much less of a collagen/tendon risk as compared to statins, as most of the data on bempedoic acid even being associated with tendon rupture was in the context of a high dose statin.

Totally get it in your case though, it would be a relatively meaningless addition with small but real side effect risks (even the small gout risk for example).

Just don't think it should be overlooked for those, especially younger ones, that might only need a small additional lowering of LDL/ApoB and would like to avoid the slightly larger albeit still small risk of a long term dose of statins.

Absolutely do not mean this as an anti-statin post, intelligent use of statins can extend individual's lives more than almost any other medical intervention.

Edit: Also want to call out once again the secondary benefits to bempedoic acid of lowering hematocrit and CRP, while possibly improving insulin sensitivity. For someone who only needs a bit more lipid lowering, those are fantastic ancillary benefits.
 
Yes, was referring to bempedoic acid.

Totally get it in your case, I just took your note regarding "bempedoic acid (not a fan)" to be a broader non-endorsement of it compared to other lipid lowering medications. I think it is fairly certain that it has much less of a collagen/tendon risk as compared to statins, as most of the data on bempedoic acid even being associated with tendon rupture was in the context of a high dose statin.

Totally get it in your case though, it would be a relatively meaningless addition with small but real side effect risks (even the small gout risk for example).

Just don't think it should be overlooked for those, especially younger ones, that might only need a small additional lowering of LDL/ApoB and would like to avoid the slightly larger albeit still small risk of a long term dose of statins.

Absolutely do not mean this as an anti-statin post, intelligent use of statins can extend individual's lives more than almost any other medical intervention.

Edit: Also want to call out once again the secondary benefits to bempedoic acid of lowering hematocrit and CRP, while possibly improving insulin sensitivity. For someone who only needs a bit more lipid lowering, those are fantastic ancillary benefits.

You make good points and risk/reward always has to be taken into consideration.

Coincidentally I just read a medical journal article today about cardiology researchers coming to the opinion that aggressively lowering cholesterol starting at 25 might have better health outcomes for - lifetime than waiting until 40+ as is usually the case. What a shocker lol.

Since PCSK9 access is limited, and Eze/Bemp are easy to get, avoids the statin-phobia impediment that stops many people from doing anything to address lipids, I completely understand it could easily be justified as a way to get LDL way down and prevent buildup to begin with, despite the tendon risk. A risk that's lower the younger someone is.

One other datapoint regarding tendons and statins. Bemp .5% overall risk is independent of statin use, Comboned with a statin* it boosts that risk by another 50% to .75%. By themselves statin tendon risk is .1%.

*the sole exception, again, being Pitavastatin, which doesn't cause the significant mitochondrial dysfunction or COQ10 synthesis reduction other statins do. Insurance would only cover Pita when it was an expensive name brand drug if a patient had side effects on at least 3 other statin treatments.
 
You make good points and risk/reward always has to be taken into consideration.

Coincidentally I just read a medical journal article today about cardiology researchers coming to the opinion that aggressively lowering cholesterol starting at 25 might have better health outcomes for - lifetime than waiting until 40+ as is usually the case. What a shocker lol.

Since PCSK9 access is limited, and Eze/Bemp are easy to get, avoids the statin-phobia impediment that stops many people from doing anything to address lipids, I completely understand it could easily be justified as a way to get LDL way down and prevent buildup to begin with, despite the tendon risk. A risk that's lower the younger someone is.

One other datapoint regarding tendons and statins. Bemp .5% overall risk is independent of statin use, Comboned with a statin* it boosts that risk by another 50% to .75%. By themselves statin tendon risk is .1%.

*the sole exception, again, being Pitavastatin, which doesn't cause the significant mitochondrial dysfunction or COQ10 synthesis reduction other statins do. Insurance would only cover Pita when it was an expensive name brand drug if a patient had side effects on at least 3 other statin treatments.

Bemp monotherapy is actually the only one which has shown regression without the use of a statin. Granted it was not a trial but only a single reported individual with imaging studies (n=1). Not a good data point, but one nonetheless.

20 months of bemp monotherapy, with a low <50 LDL.
It might be the strongest evidence that we have as of now now that regression can occur, without the use of statins, as long as LDL is low.

 
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One other datapoint regarding tendons and statins. Bemp .5% overall risk is independent of statin use, Comboned with a statin* it boosts that risk by another 50% to .75%. By themselves statin tendon risk is .1%.

I really don't mean to belabor a point here, but I am really struggling to find actual data that shows bempedoic acid is associated with tendon rupture, beyond ChatGPT seeming to hallucinate that fact when I ask it.

Tendon rupture, per the FDA package insert, was only seen in patients already undergoing high dose statins. In addition, I dug through the data and found the largest mono-therapy bempedoic acid study which was released in 2023 and had 14,000 patients with a screenshot below. Also linked here. (Edit: Adding the phase 3 trial where investigators also noted any tendon ruptures were judged to be unrelated to treatment, not to mention being a non-statistically significant difference even if it was, and unclear if it was among the statin treated group or not)

Statins have been long associated with tendon rupture, but BA's MOA doesn't intuitively make any sense as to why it would cause tendon issues (unlike statins) and the data seemingly doesn't support it. Despite ChatGPT repeatedly hallucinating when I talk to it and stating the study which I'm linking to shows that it does independently of statins.

We're lucky to have such a large monotherapy study, given that as you mention they are typically considered unethical. Only reason this one exists is because it was done among patients either unwilling or unable to take statins.

Totally don't think tendon rupture is a huge risk when it comes to statins if you're taking them intelligently, but any way that I slice the actual data it appears that BA's tendon risk is meaningfully lower than statins.
 

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I really don't mean to belabor a point here, but I am really struggling to find actual data that shows bempedoic acid is associated with tendon rupture, beyond ChatGPT seeming to hallucinate that fact when I ask it.

Tendon rupture, per the FDA package insert, was only seen in patients already undergoing high dose statins. In addition, I dug through the data and found the largest mono-therapy bempedoic acid study which was released in 2023 and had 14,000 patients with a screenshot below. Also linked here. (Edit: Adding the phase 3 trial where investigators also noted any tendon ruptures were judged to be unrelated to treatment, not to mention being a non-statistically significant difference even if it was, and unclear if it was among the statin treated group or not)

Statins have been long associated with tendon rupture, but BA's MOA doesn't intuitively make any sense as to why it would cause tendon issues (unlike statins) and the data seemingly doesn't support it. Despite ChatGPT repeatedly hallucinating when I talk to it and stating the study which I'm linking to shows that it does independently of statins.

We're lucky to have such a large monotherapy study, given that as you mention they are typically considered unethical. Only reason this one exists is because it was done among patients either unwilling or unable to take statins.

Totally don't think tendon rupture is a huge risk when it comes to statins if you're taking them intelligently, but any way that I slice the actual data it appears that BA's tendon risk is meaningfully lower than statins.

Yes, alot of info from GPT, is not correct.
This is why you need to fact check GPT.

The trial you listed of 14,000 patients, is also not entirely bemp monotherapy.
Patents are allowed the use of statins if low dosed/stable or the use of ezetimbe/PSCK9 if stable.

Since we know that statins are associated with tendon rupture, any sort of rupture may be due to statin use (or not).

• Statins are allowed only at average daily doses of rosuvastatin <5 mg, atorvastatin<10 mg, simvastatin <10 mg, lovastatin <20 mg, pravastatin <40 mg, fluvastatin<40 mg, or pitavastatin <2 mg (must be stable at least 4 weeks prior to Week -5[Visit S1]),
• Other lipid-regulating drugs or supplements (must be stable at least 4 weeks prior toWeek -5 [Visit S1])
• PCSK9 inhibitors (must be stable at least 12 weeks prior to Week -5 [Visit S1]).
 
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Patents are allowed the use of statins if low dosed/stable or the use of ezetimbe/PSCK9 if stable.
Very true, but 70% of them were on bempedoic acid alone if you dig into the supplemental data. Only 22% were on low dose statins, and then the other 8% on one of the others.

Still a broadly “monotherapy” study, and given that even the 22% that were on statins were on a very low dose, still more than powered to very clearly show whether there is an association with tendon rupture or not.

Either way, it shows there’s about as good of proof as you can hope for that bempedoic acid itself is not associated with tendon rupture or tendon issues.
 
Canada just adopted this standard a week ago. (Canuck primarily care docs online are bitching about the workload due to all the patients they'll need to put on meds now, but cardiologists are cheering it).
Do doctors not get paid for production in Canada?
 
(Another factor in my case are elevated lipids that went unaddressed for years, so despite a 0 calcium score, the presence of plaque is certain.).
You have a 0 calcium score but are certain of plaque? Have you tried to diagnose it another way, imaging, something?
 
You have a 0 calcium score but are certain of plaque? Have you tried to diagnose it another way, imaging, something?

I should've had other imaging done, but I was woefully ignorant regarding the risks for a long time. CAC was the first advanced diagnostic I had done. Then apoB.

With over a decade of Ldl > 150, uncontrolled hypertension for just as long. 140-150 systolic, and an apoB of 160, that makes significant plaque buildup, "a near inevitability" for the vast majority of individuals according to my Cardiologist. Well above 90%.

Luckily, stress test shows no heart related functional issues.

It's ironic, but high LDL, apoB, and hypertension actually delays calcium buildup, which requires stable plaque. Dynamic, accumulating plaque prevents calcification. A 0 CAC is not unusual up to around 50 with these factors.

I will get more imaging to see how far along it is and monitor regression, but I was told clinically for treatment decisions it's meaningless. The only purpose it would serve is to decide how aggressively BP and lipids should be controlled.

Since BP is ideal with Telm/Ciln, and Pitavastatin/Ezetimebe/PCSK9/GLP is about as aggressive a lipid reduction protocol there is (more aggressive than a post heart attack patient would usually be put on), there's nothing more to be done regardless of what imaging shows.

A rising CAC score will show when maximum regression is being reached and the final "healing" phase of the remaining unremovable stabilized plaque is taking place. In this case, counterintuitively, it will be an indicator of risk going down.
 
Seems that may be a very small subset of people that that will work for.

A clever dude making a very esoteric "joke".

He managed to get what seems like an absurd study peer reviewed and published.

I'm sure some could use that as an example of why studies can be disregarded, etc.

But the thing is, his little prank only worked because what he asserts is correct, at least in his group of 1 subjects (lol) and he did a high quality job of establishing it. He even perfectly complied with all the safety and ethics protocols required.

What it really proves is you need to weigh studies based on a number of factors. When something's been repeatedly demonstrated over long periods of time, involves well regarded scientists with a long track record. and/or large numbers of subjects involved (vs 1, lol), those are more significant than a single study out of left field.

That said what he demonstrated with oreos has a bunch of similar, more serious studies showing the same thing. As far as I can tell, if you exhibit this extremely high LDL because of super strict keto and extreme leanness, it's a formula for developing diabetes while making rapid progress towards clogging up your arteries.
 
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