New and with questions.

[Westy78]

Hi all, it's a pleasure to discover your forums.

I've been in the gym on and off for years but over the last 18 months I've gone as hard as I can, shifting weight and trying to build muscle.
I know it's early days but I feel my age is hindering me... Which brings me to a question.

I've had my bloods done and as a 46 year old I'm told my testosterone is "within range"
Although I think it's low looking g at what others say they aim to be at!
My simple question is. If I start on a low dose of test for a month and then retest my bloods, assuming it gets to where I think I should be at, I guess I just continue and periodically check?
The second part of this question is a more long term health one. If I have to stop for any reason, availability, money, anything will my natural production kick back in or is it a case of jabs for life?

Many thanks for your time and I'm looking forward to hearing your opinions!

 

[JackedRottie]

If you're wanting to hop on test, you have to be prepared to commit to it. If you cycle it you will lose any muscle you build while on it. And if you start it long term then up and quit, there is no guarantee your body's natural production will kick back on. But if you do decide to start and commit definitely get blood work.

You've been in the gym for 18 months. Should still be able to build muscle at a good rate in this stage. I'd suggest lifting for at least 5 years before starting any gear. Get your diet in check. Go see a sports nutritionist and get quality guidance on perfecting your diet. get your training in check make sure you are doing too much volume or too little volume. Focus on getting good stretches and contractions on the specific muscle youre working not just lifting weight.

 

[Westy78]

If you're wanting to hop on test, you have to be prepared to commit to it. If you cycle it you will lose any muscle you build while on it. And if you start it long term then up and quit, there is no guarantee your body's natural production will kick back on. But if you do decide to start and commit definitely get blood work.

You've been in the gym for 18 months. Should still be able to build muscle at a good rate in this stage. I'd suggest lifting for at least 5 years before starting any gear. Get your diet in check. Go see a sports nutritionist and get quality guidance on perfecting your diet. get your training in check make sure you are doing too much volume or too little volume. Focus on getting good stretches and contractions on the specific muscle youre working not just lifting weight.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Deep down I think I must agree and it backs up what I am reading!

18lb to go with the diet and I think I'll be happy with my body fat, hopefully muscle will keep growing during this phase and then I'll see what I'm capable of...

Thanks again!

 

[JackedRottie]

No problem. I also recommend doing dexa scans to measure your bf and lean mass. It is the most accurate way to measure progress.

 

[hexagonal]

What does within range mean? Look at actual #s. Some doctors will tell you something right above the bottom of the reference range is g2g, while a whole lot of people will feel like shit there.

You shouldn't get on supraphysiological doses until you've got your health in order, diet and training dialed, done a fucking lot of research, etc., but if you're sitting at the bottom of the reference range and experiencing symptoms, legit TRT doses might be an option - though as noted, coming off the best case scenario is generally your natural levels returning to where they were before, and a very real possibility is that they will have dropped even lower.

A doctor that specializes in this sort of thing or a TRT clinic is probably a better bet if you're just focused on getting your stuff back into high normal. Less legal risk (admittedly small even without), someone in the US that is liable if they fuck things up and thus with more incentive to not fuck things up, can help you understand bloodwork, etc. Managing all of this yourself in a manner that reduces risk is a lot of work.

 

[Westy78]

What does within range mean? Look at actual #s. Some doctors will tell you something right above the bottom of the reference range is g2g, while a whole lot of people will feel like shit there.

You shouldn't get on supraphysiological doses until you've got your health in order, diet and training dialed, done a fucking lot of research, etc., but if you're sitting at the bottom of the reference range and experiencing symptoms, legit TRT doses might be an option - though as noted, coming off the best case scenario is generally your natural levels returning to where they were before, and a very real possibility is that they will have dropped even lower.

A doctor that specializes in this sort of thing or a TRT clinic is probably a better bet if you're just focused on getting your stuff back into high normal. Less legal risk (admittedly small even without), someone in the US that is liable if they fuck things up and thus with more incentive to not fuck things up, can help you understand bloodwork, etc. Managing all of this yourself in a manner that reduces risk is a lot of work.

What does within range mean? Look at actual #s. Some doctors will tell you something right above the bottom of the reference range is g2g, while a whole lot of people will feel like shit there.

You shouldn't get on supraphysiological doses until you've got your health in order, diet and training dialed, done a fucking lot of research, etc., but if you're sitting at the bottom of the reference range and experiencing symptoms, legit TRT doses might be an option - though as noted, coming off the best case scenario is generally your natural levels returning to where they were before, and a very real possibility is that they will have dropped even lower.

A doctor that specializes in this sort of thing or a TRT clinic is probably a better bet if you're just focused on getting your stuff back into high normal. Less legal risk (admittedly small even without), someone in the US that is liable if they fuck things up and thus with more incentive to not fuck things up, can help you understand bloodwork, etc. Managing all of this yourself in a manner that reduces risk is a lot of work.

Hi, loving the time people are taking on what is quite possibly a simple question to you guys.
My testosterone was 16.60 nmol/l which is probably bang on the middle of a mid range according to professor Google. But who trusts him?
Like a previous reply, I'm going to wait it out for now and see what I'm like when the body fat is where I want it and I'm actually properly training for muscle. Given current weight loss, hopefully mid January, maybe late February if Christmas gets messy.
I just don't feel as responsive if that's a description as I did a few years back.
But hey ho, I'm getting there and I do know it's a long road!

 

[Westy78]

It's looking good as a forum, usually I find forums full of sanctimonious people who just expect people to know.
I don't mind reading up but I'm one of those who learn from doing, so others experiences help me learn!
Thanks for the warm welcome!

I don't post much but I will be reading as much as I can take in!

 

[Elektrobot]

sanctimonious people

Don't try and build muscle while loosing weight dude. Pick one. Optimize for it. Then do the other.

Continue to resistance train while you are loosing fat. Eat high protein. Use that time to really learn all you can about nutrition. Start weighing your food. Use a macro tracking app

These are things you will have to do when trying to gain muscle properly, might as well start now and make good habits while you are loosing weight.

Your test level isn't bad considering you are trying to loose weight. Being in a deficit can lower your test, and being overweight can lower it also. I wonder what it would be if you leaned out, and did 35 min of steady state cardio every day and ate well. You will have to decide for yoruself if it's worth injecting exogenous testosterone, or if you are just going to work on the lifestyle changes that would naturally raise it and see where it gets you.

I would spend at least a month reading everything you can on this forum, and following the links and suggestions to other resources.

At 46 you need to be hyper aware of your cholesterol, blood pressure and cardiac health.

Have you ever had any cardiac imaging? Calcium score, mri, echocardiogram?

Get a full lipid panel, including apob and lpa

If anything is out of range, fix it. Ideally shoot for ldl <70, hdl >60 and nuke your triglycerides.

If your blood pressure is over 120/70, fix it

If you don't have good hydration habits, fix it. On TRT your hemoglobin and hematocrit will rise and thicken your blood. Too high and you will stroke out. Hydration has a lot to do with keeping that in check, but you will need to have bloodwork to monitor it and other things frequently.

Learn. Learn. Learn. Then when you think you learned everything, realize that you didn't, and go back and learn more.

 

[hexagonal]

Don't try and build muscle while loosing weight dude. Pick one. Optimize for it. Then do the other.

Study after study and anecdote after anecdote shows that overweight people can put on respectable amounts of muscle while losing weight. It's fine for him to want that as a goal, and most of the rest of your post gives him all the right instructions for how to do that, so kind of weird to say he shouldn't care about it.

 

[Elektrobot]

Study after study and anecdote after anecdote shows that overweight people can put on respectable amounts of muscle while losing weight. It's fine for him to want that as a goal, and most of the rest of your post gives him all the right instructions for how to do that, so kind of weird to say he shouldn't care about it.

I can also drive my car with my foot on both the gas and the brakes at the same time for a "respectable amount of time", but why would I. If I'm stopping, I'm just going to stop. If I'm going, I'm just going to go. Why mess around balancing an in-between. In the long run it will have taken longer and produced worse results.

body tissue is gained in an anabolic state

body tissue is lost in a catabolic state

pick one, and go for it.

 

[hexagonal]

I can also drive my car with my foot on both the gas and the brakes at the same time for a "respectable amount of time", but why would I. If I'm stopping, I'm just going to stop. If I'm going, I'm just going to go. Why mess around balancing an in-between. In the long run it will have taken longer and produced worse results.

body tissue is gained in an anabolic state

body tissue is lost in a catabolic state

pick one, and go for it.

An overweight individual putting on muscle mass while dropping body fat is not nearly the same thing as pumping on the gas and brakes on your car at the same time. It doesn't function in an even remotely similar manner. You're not fighting against the two systems and you're not wearing out your breaks when you try to put on muscle mass in a deficit as an overweight individual that is relatively new to lifting regularly.

The idea that your body on the whole is in a binary anabolic or catabolic state is also just incorrect. Anabolism and catabolism are largely tissue-specific and run in parallel - your body doesn't decide "Today I'm catabolic, no anabolism to be had!" You can have muscle protein synthesis at a rate higher than breakdown while at the same time having lipolysis. Net energy balance is a whole body measure, protein balance is not.

If you're an overweight individual, feed your body enough protein and give it enough growth stimulus and you can build muscle even while in a caloric deficit. You don't lose anything by doing this. I'm not saying try to recomp at the same bodyweight and maintenance calories, I'm saying that he can still expect muscle gains while cutting due to his starting point.

 

[Elektrobot]

An overweight individual putting on muscle mass while dropping body fat is not nearly the same thing as pumping on the gas and brakes on your car at the same time. It doesn't function in an even remotely similar manner. You're not fighting against the two systems and you're not wearing out your breaks when you try to put on muscle mass in a deficit as an overweight individual that is relatively new to lifting regularly.

The idea that your body on the whole is in a binary anabolic or catabolic state is also just incorrect. Anabolism and catabolism are largely tissue-specific and run in parallel - your body doesn't decide "Today I'm catabolic, no anabolism to be had!" You can have muscle protein synthesis at a rate higher than breakdown while at the same time having lipolysis. Net energy balance is a whole body measure, protein balance is not.

If you're an overweight individual, feed your body enough protein and give it enough growth stimulus and you can build muscle even while in a caloric deficit. You don't lose anything by doing this. I'm not saying try to recomp at the same bodyweight and maintenance calories, I'm saying that he can still expect muscle gains while cutting due to his starting point.

This can be done in very few circumstances, - beginner gains and someone who is younger, with optimal hormones or using PED's Even then, it is not optimal.

Anabolic / catabolic isn't decided by your body, it's decided by your food

You can't be both at the same time

 

[hexagonal]

This can be done in very few circumstances, - beginner gains and someone who is younger, with optimal hormones or using PED's Even then, it is not optimal.

Anabolic / catabolic isn't decided by your body, it's decided by your food

You can't be both at the same time

This shows a severe lack of understanding of how your body functions.

Anabolism is the act of building complex molecules from simpler ones. Catabolism is breaking down larger molecules for energy. They do not simply mean "Building muscle" and "breaking down fat/muscle"

Your body is doing both constantly regardless of your energy balance. You are never in a binary state of one or the other, and yes, the process is determined by your body. It is not specific to muscle or fat. Once you understand that, you begin to understand that it is a very localized process. Energy balance influences how it shifts on the whole, but even if you're starving to death, if you're alive, you have at least some anabolic processes occurring somewhere.

Overweight individuals have large energy stores in them. If you provide your body with the necessary building blocks to build muscle, even in an energy deficit, your body will still engage in anabolic processes for skeletal muscle if you give it growth stimulus. That takes energy, too - and for lean individuals, this means needing an energy surplus - but as previously noted, overweight individuals have other energy stores available.

My point isn't that you will gain muscle as fast as a lean person on a bulk. My point is that an overweight individual should 100% expect to see some muscle growth even in a deficit, and if they are not, there are likely tweaks they can make to see that growth, and that this can be done without compromising the primary goal of losing fat.

There is absolutely no reason an overweight individual shouldn't also try to increase their lean body mass. It will improve their overall health, help set them up for better training and diet habits moving forward, and even slightly speed up the fat loss - muscle isn't THAT much more metabolically active, but it is some.

 

[Elektrobot]

This shows a severe lack of understanding of how your body functions.

Anabolism is the act of building complex molecules from simpler ones. Catabolism is breaking down larger molecules for energy. They do not simply mean "Building muscle" and "breaking down fat/muscle"

Your body is doing both constantly regardless of your energy balance. You are never in a binary state of one or the other, and yes, the process is determined by your body. It is not specific to muscle or fat. Once you understand that, you begin to understand that it is a very localized process. Energy balance influences how it shifts on the whole, but even if you're starving to death, if you're alive, you have at least some anabolic processes occurring somewhere.

Overweight individuals have large energy stores in them. If you provide your body with the necessary building blocks to build muscle, even in an energy deficit, your body will still engage in anabolic processes for skeletal muscle if you give it growth stimulus. That takes energy, too - and for lean individuals, this means needing an energy surplus - but as previously noted, overweight individuals have other energy stores available.

My point isn't that you will gain muscle as fast as a lean person on a bulk. My point is that an overweight individual should 100% expect to see some muscle growth even in a deficit, and if they are not, there are likely tweaks they can make to see that growth, and that this can be done without compromising the primary goal of losing fat.

There is absolutely no reason an overweight individual shouldn't also try to increase their lean body mass. It will improve their overall health, help set them up for better training and diet habits moving forward, and even slightly speed up the fat loss - muscle isn't THAT much more metabolically active, but it is some.

Son

You can not be in both an anabolic state and a catabolic state at the same time

What information do you have that is making you think otherwise?

 

[hexagonal]

Son

You can not be in both an anabolic state and a catabolic state at the same time

What information do you have that is making you think otherwise?

This is literally middle school level biology.

Just google "does my body perform anabolic and catabolic processes at the same time" and you'll get a million results.

They're interconnected processes. They work together. You have a wide variety of both anabolic and catabolic processes occurring across your body simultaneously. You would die if this wasn't the case - your body would not be able to function.

The fact that you think that your body is in either a binary anabolic state or catabolic state is what is underpinning your entire misunderstanding of how this works - it's just fundamentally flawed.

 

[Elektrobot]

This is literally middle school level biology.

Just google "does my body perform anabolic and catabolic processes at the same time" and you'll get a million results.

They're interconnected processes. They work together. You have a wide variety of both anabolic and catabolic processes occurring across your body simultaneously. You would die if this wasn't the case - your body would not be able to function.

The fact that you think that your body is in either a binary anabolic state or catabolic state is what is underpinning your entire misunderstanding of how this works - it's just fundamentally flawed.

I think for our concerns here we are worried with tissue. More specifically, contractile tissue and adipose tissue. Not all biologic functions.

And in this context

Anabolism / catabolism is determined by your food intake.

It's one or the other

 

[Elektrobot]

Catabolism is breaking down larger molecules for energy.

Your body does not catabolize adipose tissue for energy, unless you are in a catabolic state.

 

[AIRBORNE DADDY]

What does within range mean? Look at actual #s. Some doctors will tell you something right above the bottom of the reference range is g2g, while a whole lot of people will feel like shit there.

You shouldn't get on supraphysiological doses until you've got your health in order, diet and training dialed, done a fucking lot of research, etc., but if you're sitting at the bottom of the reference range and experiencing symptoms, legit TRT doses might be an option - though as noted, coming off the best case scenario is generally your natural levels returning to where they were before, and a very real possibility is that they will have dropped even lower.

A doctor that specializes in this sort of thing or a TRT clinic is probably a better bet if you're just focused on getting your stuff back into high normal. Less legal risk (admittedly small even without), someone in the US that is liable if they fuck things up and thus with more incentive to not fuck things up, can help you understand bloodwork, etc. Managing all of this yourself in a manner that reduces risk is a lot of work.

Agreed and off subject Sir but I think we're shit kickin buds on a peptide forum....

 

[AIRBORNE DADDY]

Agreed and off subject Sir but I think we're shit kickin buds on a peptide forum....

Hahaha.... the summer tren fucked my bw up.... even on 200mg test c my e2 was 90... on 2mg arimidex a week even.... arimidex was from Moldova in 2019 though lol. I have indiamart ai now and went to 150mg test split during the week....

 

[hexagonal]

I think for our concerns here we are worried with tissue. More specifically, contractile tissue and adipose tissue. Not all biologic functions.

And in this context

Anabolism / catabolism is determined by your food intake.

It's one or the other

The point I am trying to get you to understand is that there is no whole-body anabolic or catabolic binary state. It is all localized and depends on a variety of factors.

Once you understand that, you can then begin to understand that this also applies to muscle and fat too. Your biceps can be undergoing MPS while your beer gut is undergoing lipolysis. This is an anabolic process and catabolic process happening at the same time.

You still need to ingest protein to grow muscle - those building blocks for growing muscle tissue are required.

But what you might or might not need to ingest, depending on body composition, is surplus calories on the whole. The more body fat you have, the more your body is willing to break it down for the energy requirements. And that includes for muscle protein synthesis. Fat gets broken down and turned into ATP, and ATP is the energy for muscle synthesis just like other biological processes.

Your body does not catabolize adipose tissue for energy, unless you are in a catabolic state.

If you want to use catabolic state as a simplification for your net energy balance and the shift it has on the ratio of anabolic to catabolic processes, sure. When the phrases are used in literature, they are not claiming that all of your processes are one or the other.

(Your statement still isn't entirely true, as there are a variety of ways where your body will undergo lipolysis even when in an energy surplus, but this doesn't result in weight loss or even fat loss - a lot will just get stored as fat again, some might be used for the randle cycle, etc.)

But that doesn't matter. Anabolic processes, even for contractile tissue, can still occur in an overall catabolic state. If this wasn't true then we wouldn't be able to reliable reproduce studies where overweight people gain muscle even in a caloric deficit which puts them in a catabolic state. We wouldn't have countless anecdotal testimonies of people doing it. You have to lose net energy, but if you are overweight, you can get that net energy from your fat stores.

I'm not saying you're going to make massive gains. I'm not saying you're going to make gains similar to what you would as a lean individual bulking. I am not saying to eat maintenance calories. I am saying that a significantly overweight person can expect to add muscle while primarily focusing on cutting, and if they are seeing no evidence of that, be it strength gains in the gym, LBM on a dexa, whatever, it is worth tweaking things to see if they can change that. Shift your macros. Adjust volume. Get more sleep. Reduce stress. etc.

There's absolutely no reason we shouldn't tell people to try and also gain muscle when they're losing weight from an overweight or obese starting point. It's all beneficial for them to do so.

Hahaha.... the summer tren fucked my bw up.... even on 200mg test c my e2 was 90... on 2mg arimidex a week even.... arimidex was from Moldova in 2019 though lol. I have indiamart ai now and went to 150mg test split during the week....

Oof. Seems like really high e2 even if the arimidex had gone off.