For those of you who don't want to to run more than TRT testosterone levels, how do you cycle?

[Duraclear]

Well said, you cover a lot of useful points of experience here. Sensible approach.

That amped feeling and/or even slight reduction in sleep quality if all else ok/ reasonable are in my opinion other side effects worth taking notice of if your risk tolerance is lower. My HRV gets flatlined and thats a reflection of that amped up/ constant sympathetic tone and its absolutely not healthy. Essentially a form of chronic stress, with cardiac and other implications.

Currently waiting to notice if i get any joint effects from deca ... nothing yet so it may be similar to you.

If you ever get to your microdose of tren experiment keep us updated.

Thank you.

I agree with you. That "amped" feeling definitely feels like some CNS overstimulation, and I agree that it can't have good health implications. I start feeling it slightly even at 150mg/wk.

I can't even fathom how guys do 500 or even 1000+mgs for weeks or even months on end. They're definitely made of different stuff than me. Wish I could do it, but on the other hand, maybe it's for the best that I can't.

I hope your deca experiment works out for you. I will be working on getting that tren probably in the next couple of weeks. I'm a little anxious because I already responded poorly to another 19-nor, but hopefully the low dose should mitigate things, and I'll be having someone monitor my behavior this time to let me know if I'm getting a little weird.

 

[Duraclear]

For hematocrit, lab results say 39.4 to 51.1 is "desirable." That seems oddly specific. I last tested at 58.6%. Last time I tried to give blood the Red Cross did their test and wouldn't touch me. Another place that does not care did the test and the tech told me that she could see my blood is "really thick." So I guess, absent contrary data, I want it in that desirable range.

I have been told I can reduce it by drinking lots more water and injecting daily as opposed to twice weekly. I have also read that a higher RBC count is good because more red blood cells means more O2 to my muscles.

What do you think are "desirable" or at least acceptable levels?

Yeesh. I'm not normally one to freak out too much about hematocrit, but 58.6 is quite high. I don't think there are many scenarios in which that level is desirable unless you are a serious endurance athlete or living at very high altitude. It doesn't sound like either apply to you.

The research isn't entirely clear that high HCT is causative for thrombosis, but current thinking is that atherogenesis (arterial plaque buildup) is at least partly hematological. The idea is that you don't want thick, sludgy blood hanging out around inflamed endothelia (artery walls) and depositing crud.

I'm not you, but if I was, I'd stop everything I was doing right now and get that number down and then go back to the drawing board. I would drop my test dose to 100mg test/wk with no other substances and take 40-ish mgs Telmisartan/day, 8,000FU Nattokinase, and drink a ton of water until that number got down to like 52 (but preferably lower), and then maybe start conservatively upping the test dose/adding additional compounds.

As Badsanta also noted, I'd get checked for sleep apnea as well. But first and foremost, I'd be aggressively trying to get that number down. I would also aggressively ignore Todd Lee. But like I said, that's just me.

 

[jtmarlin]

The only thing that's been tolerable and effective is low dose Anavar at 5 - 10mgs/day, especially in a defecit. Definitely helps to retain muscle and gives a noticeably harder look. But it hits my HDL for about a point per mg. Fortunately, my triglycerides (which is a more significant marker than LDL) are down in the 30s, so it's not a huge deal, but it's not something I want to do for extended periods of time.

I do keep going back to anavar in my mind. I have used 25mg per day without any noticeable issues outside of it putting my HDL in the 30s. I just get spooked as I have calcification in my LAD heart artery most likely from abusing testosterone in my 20s for a few years. I used 500mg per week and other substances for the majority of a 3 year period. My triglycerides have always been naturally low, my lp(a) is rock bottom and now I am on 5mg of lipitor daily and repatha. My HDL is 60, LDL 40, and ApoB 45. I truly don't even know if it matters if I take 100mg of Anavar per day or if it lays plaque thru some other way. It just spooks me a touch but I think it is the best tradeoff.

 

[jtmarlin]

E2 at 100 pg/mL? Out of curiosity were you attributing any side effects to this? I've been at 405 pmol/l → 110 pg/ml.

I am also on a 2:1 test to primo ratio as a start point. 300 test and 150 primo and that has my E2 at 198 pmol/L ≈ 54 pg/mL. The primo is certainly lowering my E2 here, knowing what my historical test only dose and E2 measurements are.

What are you going to consider as acceptable E2 and hematocrit, if no overt side effects?

I have also used 200mg test cyp + 100mg of primo weekly. I liked how I felt on it but my free T was thru the frigging roof (40-55 IIRC) and my e2 was 8. I don't know if those things are sustainable for me long term. I also didn't notice much more in yhe way of muscle with these doses.

I also feel like trying to microdose cycling for me and TRT+ over the years has led to subpar gains while really skewing bloods. It's almost not worth the squeeze.

 

[Jron]

I remember in the early 2000's many bodybuilding forums had guys posting about running 200mg test and up to 1g of primo no problem. Low test high primo was fairly common.

Now? Everyone apparently can't even handle 1:1 test/primo or 1:1 test eq without complaining about low estrogen. I'm week 7 right now with 300mg test, 500mg primo, and 1000IU HCG a week. E2 is at 29.7 and feel excellent.

Maybe use more HCG as it quickly elevates E2? I dunno what to tell ya. If you're one of those guys getting the cookie cutter 100mg test a week prescribed cause that's all insurance will cover, then maybe don't run EQ or primo at all.

Running primo at 100mg or less is kind of a waste of time if you are wanting to cycle.

 

[Duraclear]

I do keep going back to anavar in my mind. I have used 25mg per day without any noticeable issues outside of it putting my HDL in the 30s. I just get spooked as I have calcification in my LAD heart artery most likely from abusing testosterone in my 20s for a few years. I used 500mg per week and other substances for the majority of a 3 year period. My triglycerides have always been naturally low, my lp(a) is rock bottom and now I am on 5mg of lipitor daily and repatha. My HDL is 60, LDL 40, and ApoB 45. I truly don't even know if it matters if I take 100mg of Anavar per day or if it lays plaque thru some other way. It just spooks me a touch but I think it is the best tradeoff.

Ha! It's amazing how similar our scenarios are. I also have LAD calcification, which accounts for my aversion to risk.

Anavar can have cardiac effects, especially at high doses (25+mg/day) and has been somewhat inconclusively associated with clotting. Personally, I am very reluctant to dose it any higher than 10mg/day, but again, I may be more conservative than most. As others have noted, one must always take what "fitness influencers" say with a large grain of salt, but I've found Vigorous Steve's info on Anavar to be quite useful and accurate when I cross-check it with the reference materials.

But yes, I agree that moderate, conservative Anavar use is probably safest and most effective for guys like us.

Also, I realize that it is a controversial take, but I have decided not to take a statin after extensive research, including reading numerous studies. More and more, we are discovering that atherogenesis is not as simple as LDL = bad, and that it is a complex and multifactoral process involving inflammation, hematology, lipids, and more. But do your own research, of course.

For further cardiac risk mitigation, I employ daily 18/6 intermittent fasting, low-carb/Mediterranean diet, Telmisartan, nattokinase, vitamin K2, CoQ-10, creatine, citrulline, and the usuals such as magnesium, D3, etc. If you do decide to continue taking a statin, be absolutely sure to supplement with CoQ-10, creatine, and K2, as statins throw these levels off via various mechanisms.

Again, it's important to view anyone on YouTube with skepticism, but in the cardiac space, Dr. Jamnadas and Dr. Ford Brewer appear to be quite solid (although you do have to sift through some nonsense with Brewer).

Not that you asked for any of that info, but I hope it helps.

 

[JK1]

I'm not sure I had any side effects of high E2 actually. I'm scared to heck of gyno but there are really no signs of it, no ED, libido is good, I'm not losing muscle and I have not gained weight or fat. No hair thinning or loss. Also no acne, although thats a test thing I guess. It may have been impacting my emotions though. I feel a little happier now and get upset less easily than several weeks ago but that could be coincidence.



Thanks for posting that, its very reassuring. I hope I have as good a result with the 2:1 ratio. I'll know in several weeks and post the result.


Great questions. For E2, I have no idea. The lab results say < 29 is the "desirable result" but I have read that higher is okay, even as high as 100 which was what I last tested in late December. I probably would be happy under 50ish if I continue to have no sides and my mood / emotions / whatever remain stable and good. I *think* E2 is anabolic so a little on the high side is good. Not sure thats true.

For hematocrit, lab results say 39.4 to 51.1 is "desirable." That seems oddly specific. I last tested at 58.6%. Last time I tried to give blood the Red Cross did their test and wouldn't touch me. Another place that does not care did the test and the tech told me that she could see my blood is "really thick." So I guess, absent contrary data, I want it in that desirable range.

I have been told I can reduce it by drinking lots more water and injecting daily as opposed to twice weekly. I have also read that a higher RBC count is good because more red blood cells means more O2 to my muscles.

What do you think are "desirable" or at least acceptable levels?

Its the usual depends on the person, but yes high normal or just above for e2 is common but again people feel different. It seems reasonable for it not to be sky high or definitely not too low.

Haematocrit ... probably OK or accept hovering above top of range.

 

[JK1]

Yeesh. I'm not normally one to freak out too much about hematocrit, but 58.6 is quite high. I don't think there are many scenarios in which that level is desirable unless you are a serious endurance athlete or living at very high altitude. It doesn't sound like either apply to you.

The research isn't entirely clear that high HCT is causative for thrombosis, but current thinking is that atherogenesis (arterial plaque buildup) is at least partly hematological. The idea is that you don't want thick, sludgy blood hanging out around inflamed endothelia (artery walls) and depositing crud.

I'm not you, but if I was, I'd stop everything I was doing right now and get that number down and then go back to the drawing board. I would drop my test dose to 100mg test/wk with no other substances and take 40-ish mgs Telmisartan/day, 8,000FU Nattokinase, and drink a ton of water until that number got down to like 52 (but preferably lower), and then maybe start conservatively upping the test dose/adding additional compounds.

As Badsanta also noted, I'd get checked for sleep apnea as well. But first and foremost, I'd be aggressively trying to get that number down. I would also aggressively ignore Todd Lee. But like I said, that's just me.

Agree. This is useful info.

I need to check this but does telmi have a proposed effect on rbc ?

 

[JK1]

I have also used 200mg test cyp + 100mg of primo weekly. I liked how I felt on it but my free T was thru the frigging roof (40-55 IIRC) and my e2 was 8. I don't know if those things are sustainable for me long term. I also didn't notice much more in yhe way of muscle with these doses.

I also feel like trying to microdose cycling for me and TRT+ over the years has led to subpar gains while really skewing bloods. It's almost not worth the squeeze.

On 300test and 150 primo my free t is 2.401 nmol/L ≈ 69.1 ng/dL and e2 198 pmol/L ≈ 54 pg/mL.

E2 at 8!? Didnt you feel off?

 

[Rival]

I’m on TRT @100mg a week as well. My go to blast is always ~300mg test / 150mg NPP a week. With some anavar the last 6 or so weeks as I drop NPP. Personally I love NPP and my body responds amazing to it so I use very minimal. I like to keep it at 1:1 or 1:2.

 

[Duraclear]

Agree. This is useful info.

I need to check this but does telmi have a proposed effect on rbc ?

Nothing officially documented, but anecdotally, many swear by it and it has been consistent with my personal experience. Telmisartan definitely lowers my RBC. My hematocrit stays at a 49 even when I bump my test dose up or use Anavar. 49 is higher than my pre-TRT baseline of 45, but it is acceptable to me. Of interesting note, nandrolone somehow blew right through whatever RBC protection Telmisartan offers me.

Telmi also helps prevent left ventricular hypertrophy, modulates blood pressure, and slows or even stops heart disease progression. I feel like it's something everyone who uses these substances should be on, especially those of us over 40.

 

[JK1]

Nothing officially documented, but anecdotally, many swear by it and it has been consistent with my personal experience. Telmisartan definitely lowers my RBC. My hematocrit stays at a 49 even when I bump my test dose up or use Anavar. 49 is higher than my pre-TRT baseline of 45, but it is acceptable to me. Of interesting note, nandrolone somehow blew right through whatever RBC protection Telmisartan offers me.

Telmi also helps prevent left ventricular hypertrophy, modulates blood pressure, and slows or even stops heart disease progression. I feel like it's something everyone who uses these substances should be on, especially those of us over 40.

Right, interesting. I could be doing dropping a point or two on haematocrit. What's your dosing at? I have used it before without 'needing' it, no bp issues, but at the time i was getting more conscious unnecessary additions. I think i dropped to 20 for a bit then stopped.

I knew it was popular for its other benefits.

Incidentally my systolic seems to be running a little high as well over last couple of days.

You've convinced me to reintroduce it. Although I am currently trialling deca mainly for joint relief so thats possibly a conflict as you suggest.

 

[JK1]

I’m on TRT @100mg a week as well. My go to blast is always ~300mg test / 150mg NPP a week. With some anavar the last 6 or so weeks as I drop NPP. Personally I love NPP and my body responds amazing to it so I use very minimal. I like to keep it at 1:1 or 1:2.

Yeah 300 is probably going to be my limit as well.

Curious, did you cycle through other options before landing with npp? So many seem to not tolerate nandrolone then some seem to love it.

You say 1:1 as well so you've run 300 test and 300 npp?

 

[Rival]

Yeah 300 is probably going to be my limit as well.

Curious, did you cycle through other options before landing with npp? So many seem to not tolerate nandrolone then some seem to love it.

You say 1:1 as well so you've run 300 test and 300 npp?

Yes but 1:1 tends to hit people differently. I think k first time it’s best to always do it as 2:1. As mentioned I tolerate it well. I’ve never tried Deca, no reason too with the way I respond to NPP.

 

[BALLISTIC]

Tell us more about e2 as an added compound.
The reason i ask is a research paper that collated the data from like 19 research papers done on cattle.
It compared size gains in cattle using test , test tren and test tren estradiol in cattle. (University of Minnesota) The gains using Tes,Tre,Estr, were crazy almost 40% more muscle/meat.
All cattle started at a Baseline of say 600lbs in the same amount of time the base group with nothing but food went to 925lbs....the test only to 1050, the test tren to 1140 but test tren estradiol almost 1280lbs.
I posted this info maybe 5 or 6 years ago. First time ive heard of what you suggest.
Any research?

Hey my man, I'm no resident expert and it's purely anecdotal in transparency. But I've researched your study, and then I started to personally correlate E2 in reference to androgen load. Here is a few threads you can dig through where I give some insight so I don't have to post it all here. Again it's opinion based, but I think with cycles being run like this it will only prove beneficial depending on the compounds incorporated. Say primo, EQ, tren... Hope this helps...


Thread 'E2 in Range But Joints and Tendons FUBAR' https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/e2-in-range-but-joints-and-tendons-fubar.134434009/

Thread 'Unique Test/Primo/E2 Base Cycle + EO Experiment' https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/unique-test-primo-e2-base-cycle-eo-experiment.134434026/

 

[Throwback]

Hey my man, I'm no resident expert and it's purely anecdotal in transparency. But I've researched your study, and then I started to personally correlate E2 in reference to androgen load. Here is a few threads you can dig through where I give some insight so I don't have to post it all here. Again it's opinion based, but I think with cycles being run like this it will only prove beneficial depending on the compounds incorporated. Say primo, EQ, tren... Hope this helps...


Thread 'E2 in Range But Joints and Tendons FUBAR' https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/e2-in-range-but-joints-and-tendons-fubar.134434009/

Thread 'Unique Test/Primo/E2 Base Cycle + EO Experiment' https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/unique-test-primo-e2-base-cycle-eo-experiment.134434026/

Your first recommended post is exactly on point regarding e2 and compounds.
Even on trt at 150mg/wk my e2 sweet spot is about 42. As cycle doses of test etc rise and then convert to e2 that number rises. At approx 70 i can sense e2 is getting too high due to emotional issues.....crying over puppy commercials, chick flicks etc
At that point i will take .5mg arimidex then another .5 mg the day following my next two injections.
That 1.5 mg total spread over a week knocks my e2 back into the high 30s where it will gradually creep up again over 6 to 8 weeks. Thats on a 750mg 300 tren dose cycle.
At trt dosing of 150mg test e2 has never gone beyond 44.
So there is definitely a correlating sweet spot to hit for overall well being and i think gains also,out of the normal high ranges for e2 when cycling.

 

[IceSkates]

I have also kinda sorta aligned on 100 mg/week being my sweet TRT spot after honestly trying various higher does and testing throughout. Maybe a tad "disappointing" it is only 100 but that is way the numbers say. 100 mg test put me at 1095 ng/dL total test, 77 pg/ml E2, 372 pg/ml free test. My SHBG pre TRT was at 20 nmol/l but after starting has been 10-12.

I was thinking 77 e2 is high and adding primo at 100 mg/week so that I can get more out of TRT and run it longer term without issues. Primo could help lower E2 and also provide anabolism since i'm only doing 100 mg/week test now.

Still thinking through it as it's going to be primo or an AI. And on balance primo seems like it could add more.

 

[AlexDavis43]

That "amped" feeling definitely feels like some CNS overstimulation, and I agree that it can't have good health implications. I start feeling it slightly even at 150mg/wk.

That's one of the big differences between TRT and TRT+ (which basically means running gear to make gainz)

I can't even fathom how guys do 500 or even 1000+mgs for weeks or even months on end. They're definitely made of different stuff than me. Wish I could do it, but on the other hand, maybe it's for the best that I can't.

They are of a different ilk than most humans