Doesn't nandralone increase aromatase production and estrogen receptor sensitivity because it's a progestin?
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Aromatase Inhibitors Fix the Number but Break the System, open discussion.
- Thread starter BALLISTIC
- Start date
Doesn't nandralone increase aromatase production and estrogen receptor sensitivity because it's a progestin?
bananafeet
Member
I don't have a PhD so I can't answer this.
I know progesterone blocks or antagonizes estrodial which is why it's needed in female HRT to stop uterine over growth.
I think what you're thinking of is the fact that nandralone is a partial ligand of the PR so it can activate it. So you get the synergy of estrogen plus a progestin which increases the likelihood of gyno because prolactin in raised. I don't know if it's a direct tissue effect.
But it's not a full agonist so it doesn't act like progesterone. It acts more like an endocrine dysrupter.
bananafeet
Member
Ok quick follow up apparently I was off on a few points:
"Pro-
gesterone antagonizes estrogen-driven growth in the endometrium, and insufficient progesterone action strikingly increases the risk of endometrial cancer. In endometriosis, eutopic and ectopic tissues do not respond sufficiently to progesterone and are considered to be progesterone-resistant, which contributes to proliferation
and survival. In uterine fibroids, progesterone promotes growth by increasing proliferation, cellular hypertrophy, and deposition of extracellular matrix. In normal mammary tissue and breast cancer, progesterone is pro-proliferative and carcinogenic. "
Source:
https://sci.bban.top/pdf/10.1210/er.2012-1043.pdf
So I'm guessing in men nandralone can directly act on the breast as it's a partial ligand and in the right situation increase growth. ChatGPT seems to think it increases prolactin by reducing dopamine which makes sense because in most people nandrolone is depressive.
"Pro-
gesterone antagonizes estrogen-driven growth in the endometrium, and insufficient progesterone action strikingly increases the risk of endometrial cancer. In endometriosis, eutopic and ectopic tissues do not respond sufficiently to progesterone and are considered to be progesterone-resistant, which contributes to proliferation
and survival. In uterine fibroids, progesterone promotes growth by increasing proliferation, cellular hypertrophy, and deposition of extracellular matrix. In normal mammary tissue and breast cancer, progesterone is pro-proliferative and carcinogenic. "
Source:
https://sci.bban.top/pdf/10.1210/er.2012-1043.pdf
So I'm guessing in men nandralone can directly act on the breast as it's a partial ligand and in the right situation increase growth. ChatGPT seems to think it increases prolactin by reducing dopamine which makes sense because in most people nandrolone is depressive.
SnowyMiami
Member
I popped a quarter pill of Adex and had popping joints in an hour on a TRT dose. It was designed to nuke estradiol to zero and it works.
I was hoping Masteron or Proviron might be what I'm looking for just to take the edge off the wateriness without losing the joint benefits of high-normal E2.
I’ve had crippling joint pain when taking either Aromasin or anastrozole while still being in the normal estradiol range
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ganciodestro
Member
Yes, but adding Masteron—I’m not sure how healthy that is in the long run, even if it’s only 10 mg a day. I tried it for a week and it does work. I can also take 1000 IU of hCG without any feeling of high E2. However, I won’t deny that my joints hurt a bit, even after just one week.
I’ll tell you more. To lower estrogens and try to bring them down to 35, I took 0.25 mg of Arimidex with 26 mg of propionate per day. The next day I felt really bad… but my libido was through the roof. I didn’t even have time to get blood work done, and the following day E2 was exactly where it had been before.
Now I’d like to try 6.25 mg of Aromasin every 3.5 days, or maybe less, and see how it goes. I’d just like to get rid of that feeling of uneasiness that E2 gives me.
But even there, we’ll have to see if the dose is too high. For example, Arimidex on TRT is a no-go for me, even at very small doses.
Sounds like your very sensitive to AI
xrayphoton13
Member
Thread 'Article on distinguishing progestins, prolactin, and progestagenic androgens (e.g., Tren, MENT, Deca) & SERM vs. AI logic [by Type-IIx]' https://thinksteroids.com/community...-deca-serm-vs-ai-logic-by-type-iix.134410959/
Nandrolone Insights: Unique Characteristics of Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids – Part 6
Nandrolone is a popular anabolic steroid known for joint support, muscle growth, and increased red blood cell production.
thinksteroids.com
Ateam2023
New Member
I know when I move my testosterone injections to EOD that helps smooth out my E2 which I've been struggling with while I'm just TRT doses, I've been struggling with this for several years and finally gave the EOD a shot in so far so good, I was always too high E2 or crashed E2, I only used arimidex though , but now I'm not having to rely on an AI is nice,
I also think people blame high E2 for a lot of symptoms that are probably being caused by other things.
BALLISTIC
Member
Yes, but tread lightly with bringing it up, I've found those convinced by longevity bro science are diehard. They need a strong relative confirmation to deter established belief. I was just watching some go back and forth in reference to HGH, Deca, Dbol, and blaming high E2 for all the reasons they're not doing great. I hardly believe that the doses of AI they're referencing to correct the issue is going to improve their state of being.
Edit: I'm also often dumbfounded by the desire to repeat the same over and over, while remaining obstinate to trying new alternatives.
Took my first few doses of Arimidex over the last few weeks. 0.25mg dried me out immediately on 600mg test, 100mg mast 100mg primo. I accidentally took 0.5mg two days later and...now I know what low E2 feels like. My skin got really dry and my joints hurt. Took several days off and tried 0.25mg again and had mild joint pains for a few days. My skin seems way less greasy than it used to be, and I haven't taken another dose in about a week. From now on I'll take 0.125mg as and when needed only.
Hey, guys. After read all the post, first i want to thank u all for the messages and thoughts. I'm an AI abuser, always a higher aromatizator and use anastrozole to lower e2. In those years using, have a lot of problems in my kness and my libido. After read this tread, want to give back some e2 to my body, just to feel the benefits read here....
Second, like i'm an higher aromatizator, how can i keep my water retention under control? Thanks again
Second, like i'm an higher aromatizator, how can i keep my water retention under control? Thanks again
bananafeet
Member
I'd recommend using easier to control AIs like exemestane/aromasin.
Letrazole is very harsh and causes rebound.
Aromasin will not completely wipe out estrogen unless taken in a very high dose.
Do you have sensitive blood tests (LCMS) showing high estrodial? Or is it just how you feel?
All steroids can cause water retention because holding onto salts is important for building new tissue.
I
In my experience Asin is harder to dose than arimidex. Reason being is it’s so short acting and takes longer to get the flow down with it where adex is take a quarter or half or whole and forget it. Just my 2 cents.
adrenalytic
Member
Loving this thread. thanks for making it @BALLISTIC
I haven't heard any talk about OTC E2 control. I do find I get a subtle reduction from Calcium-D Glucarate and DIM. I don't have any blood work confirming this, just feels. I am currently not taking either because I'm on cruise and I just got my E2 back at 62 (300mg TE, 100mg TRE and I was popping low dose Dbol the week before so it might be a little off). Maybe I can add them back in for a few weeks and pull E2 again just to see if the effect is real.
Wondering if anyone else uses these or can add any insight as to how they behave in vivo, would be great.
I haven't heard any talk about OTC E2 control. I do find I get a subtle reduction from Calcium-D Glucarate and DIM. I don't have any blood work confirming this, just feels. I am currently not taking either because I'm on cruise and I just got my E2 back at 62 (300mg TE, 100mg TRE and I was popping low dose Dbol the week before so it might be a little off). Maybe I can add them back in for a few weeks and pull E2 again just to see if the effect is real.
Wondering if anyone else uses these or can add any insight as to how they behave in vivo, would be great.
I’m weird man I hate OTC supps. I only use fishoil, Nattokinase, ubiqunol, magnesium and Vit D and K and taurine and was using Berberine until it to my Metformin script. I’m a Pharma guy for all hormone related things.
bananafeet
Member
"High triglyceride and cholesterol levels were more likely in women who took Arimidex compared to women who took Aromasin:
- 3% of women who took Arimidex had high triglyceride levels compared to 2% of women who took Aromasin
- 18% of women who took Arimidex had high cholesterol levels compared to 15% of women who took Aromasin
- 35% of women who took Arimidex developed osteoporosis compared to 31% of women who took Aromasin"
It's probably just personal preference.
"In our findings, exemestane was not superior to anastrozole as postulated; in addition, anastrozole was not superior to exemestane by two-way test. These drugs had a somewhat different adverse effect profile, particularly concerning the effect of exemestane on bone health. The latter finding will be evaluated more fully in our bone substudy. Given these results, exemestane should now be considered another safe and effective option in addition to anastrozole or letrozole as initial adjuvant therapy for patients with hormone receptor–positive postmenopausal breast cancer."
Source: Exemestane Versus Anastrozole in Postmenopausal Women With Early Breast Cancer: NCIC CTG MA.27—A Randomized Controlled Phase III Trial - PMC
I have only ever used aromasin, so I have limited practical experience. I can't find the source which led me to believe aromasin is less harsh than arimidex. Maybe someone else has it.
Our local guru has already covered it:
Just something that seems to keep coming up is the superiority of Aromasin vs. Arimidex when talking about estrogen management. I talked about it this past weekend in my symposium about estrogen management for men, and it came up before in one of my podcasts, Aromasin vs Arimidex Science | Masteron vs Primobolan Comparison | Back Activation
Meso likes to see the written form a lot so I figured I'd share the factors compared here
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC1dxVDp1SQ
adrenalytic
Member
I respect that. Lots of supplements are pure snake oil. The ones you listed plus hyaluronic acid, TUDCA/NAC and various vitamins/minerals are the only ones that are tried and true.
At least you know pharma is regulated and tested.
"High triglyceride and cholesterol levels were more likely in women who took Arimidex compared to women who took Aromasin:
Osteoporosis was more likely in women who took Arimidex compared to women who took Aromasin:
- 3% of women who took Arimidex had high triglyceride levels compared to 2% of women who took Aromasin
- 18% of women who took Arimidex had high cholesterol levels compared to 15% of women who took Aromasin
Source: Arimidex and Aromasin Equally Good at Reducing Recurrence Risk
- 35% of women who took Arimidex developed osteoporosis compared to 31% of women who took Aromasin"
It's probably just personal preference.
"In our findings, exemestane was not superior to anastrozole as postulated; in addition, anastrozole was not superior to exemestane by two-way test. These drugs had a somewhat different adverse effect profile, particularly concerning the effect of exemestane on bone health. The latter finding will be evaluated more fully in our bone substudy. Given these results, exemestane should now be considered another safe and effective option in addition to anastrozole or letrozole as initial adjuvant therapy for patients with hormone receptor–positive postmenopausal breast cancer."
Source: Exemestane Versus Anastrozole in Postmenopausal Women With Early Breast Cancer: NCIC CTG MA.27—A Randomized Controlled Phase III Trial - PMC
I have only ever used aromasin, so I have limited practical experience. I can't find the source which led me to believe aromasin is less harsh than arimidex. Maybe someone else has it.
Our local guru has already covered it:
Just something that seems to keep coming up is the superiority of Aromasin vs. Arimidex when talking about estrogen management. I talked about it this past weekend in my symposium about estrogen management for men, and it came up before in one of my podcasts, Aromasin vs Arimidex Science | Masteron vs Primobolan Comparison | Back Activation
Meso likes to see the written form a lot so I figured I'd share the factors compared here
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC1dxVDp1SQ
I have had literally the exact opposite experience he states here lol!
Also while on 3mg of anastrozole a week I still had igf1 in the mid 500s on 5iu EOD Of GH. Reason why I ran such a high dose of anastrazole was cuz I was doing fertility protocol of 4500-5000iu HCG a week.
