Finasteride blocking hairloss with Tren...

[DocJ]

i've heard conflicting reports on this....some say do not use finasteride with deca or tren, some say just don't use it with deca but tren is ok. opinions?

 

[w_llewellyn]

Doesn't do anything to tren.

Finasteride helps with testosterone and derrivatives like methyltest and halo. It hurts (makes more androgenic) nandrolone and some of its derrivatives like ethylestrenol and nilevar. Tren is a nandrolone based drug, but doesn't seem to be affected by 5-alpha reductase to any appreciable degree. At the very least, it definitely won't help with hair loss here.

 

[PDP]

Unless under very specific circumstances, you would not be using tren without test, the simple answer is: "If you are concerned with hairloss, use finasteride in any bulking cycle containing testosterone, even if Deca is being used in said cycle."

From my experience finasteride use in a test cycle warrants the use of a very strong anti-e. Finasteride use in a cutting cycle with testosterone does not produce good results as edema and fat accumulation is accelerated with finasteride use.

 

[atomicone]

Finisteride only directly blocks the DHT conversion of testosterone, but it will still help to some degree since it will lower your overall DHT levels. The only AAS this would not apply to would be Deca. If you're really concerned take it with a topical DHT product like Xandrox or Spiro. Check out www.xandrox.com

 

[PDP]

Finisteride only directly blocks the DHT conversion of testosterone, but it will still help to some degree since it will lower your overall DHT levels. The only AAS this would not apply to would be Deca.

I am not certain of the veracity of this statement. However, your point regarding topicals is a good one.

 

[DocJ]

edema and fat accumulation is accelerated with finasteride use.

really? i've never heard that...dramatic acceleration?

 

[PDP]

Fairly dramatic. Studies indicate that males using finasteride increase scale weight and that this weight is generally water. Finasteride increases circulating estrogen for two reasons: (1) there is more serum testosterone as less is converted to DHT (although through feedback this will reach equilibrium rather quickly) and in turn more estrogen via aromatase and (2) and most important, there is a systemic lack of DHT. DHT is thought to have anti-estrogenic type effects.

From my own experience finateride use hinders fat loss attempts in the absence of a good anti-estrogen.

 

[atomicone]

I've used Propecia/Proscar for 2 years straight and now take Avodart .5mg ED and have not noticed any estrogen related weight gain/bloating. However, it is true that by lowering DHT and thus raising Test levels you can possibly have a little bit more estrogen than the average male, although I had my blood work done 3 months ago and all my estrogen levels were normal.

FYI: I have a full head of hair, but Xandrox, Propecia/Proscar/Avodart, and Dr. Mitchell's RX shampoo (which contains 2% Nizoral and 3% Salacylic Acid) had a lot to do with it.

Fairly dramatic. Studies indicate that males using finasteride increase scale weight and that this weight is generally water. Finasteride increases circulating estrogen for two reasons: (1) there is more serum testosterone as less is converted to DHT (although through feedback this will reach equilibrium rather quickly) and in turn more estrogen via aromatase and (2) and most important, there is a systemic lack of DHT. DHT is thought to have anti-estrogenic type effects.

From my own experience finateride use hinders fat loss attempts in the absence of a good anti-estrogen.

 

[PDP]

1.) Venkatesh Babu Segu, MD, Associate Director of Diabetes Care Center, Department of Internal Medicine, St Mark's Hospital of Salt Lake City, states the following:

"Pathologic gynecomastia can be caused by decreased production and/or action of testosterone, increased production and/or action of estrogen, or drug use; however, gynecomastia can also be idiopathic.

Conditions that result in primary or secondary hypogonadism and cause decreased production and/or action of testosterone include the following:

- Five alpha-reductase deficiency syndrome (leads to decreased production of DHT)"

2.) Reform Mag @ Bodybuilding.com writes:

"One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard wayby developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT's protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification-bitch tits.

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least."

3.) Bill Roberts giving a trite answer to a question everyone that use these compounds should already know, notes the following:

"Question: Does blocking DHT affect circulating estrogen levels or the likelihood of estrogen-related side effects like gynecomastia?

Roberts Answer: Yes."

4.) A product used to actually treat gynocomastia is Andractim... it is a DHT transdermal! Thus showing that DHT has anti-estrogen type effects.

5.) The product monograph for finasteride (and dutasteride) list gynocomastia as a potential side effect. Although full gyno is rare, the earlier stages of estrogenic side effects are usually present to some degree in users of these drugs. This includes edema and female pattern fat accumulation. In the least, elevated estrigen levels, even if they fall within the so-called normal range, tend to make cutting more difficult.

I have used finasteride for 6 years. I came off it about a year ago and within 10 days I dropped 8 lbs. This was clearly water. Excess estrogen is detrimental to cutting efforts.

BTW just because estrogen falls within the "normal range" does not mean that estrogen levels are not raised from basal in any given subject.

I would still recommend finasteride while cycling with testosterone, but would strongly suggest a very good anti-e as well.

 

[DocJ]

I would still recommend finasteride while cycling with testosterone, but would strongly suggest a very good anti-e as well.

i have mildly thinning areas and my genetic predisposition for MBP is pretty low. would simply using finasteride when using test even though it's use would only be during that cycle time help with any possible thinning? thanks.

 

[DiaDuit]

1.) Venkatesh Babu Segu, MD, Associate Director of Diabetes Care Center, Department of Internal Medicine, St Mark's Hospital of Salt Lake City, states the following:

"Pathologic gynecomastia can be caused by decreased production and/or action of testosterone, increased production and/or action of estrogen, or drug use; however, gynecomastia can also be idiopathic.

Conditions that result in primary or secondary hypogonadism and cause decreased production and/or action of testosterone include the following:

- Five alpha-reductase deficiency syndrome (leads to decreased production of DHT)"

2.) Reform Mag @ Bodybuilding.com writes:

"One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard wayby developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT's protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification-bitch tits.

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least."

3.) Bill Roberts giving a trite answer to a question everyone that use these compounds should already know, notes the following:

"Question: Does blocking DHT affect circulating estrogen levels or the likelihood of estrogen-related side effects like gynecomastia?

Roberts Answer: Yes."

4.) A product used to actually treat gynocomastia is Andractim... it is a DHT transdermal! Thus showing that DHT has anti-estrogen type effects.

5.) The product monograph for finasteride (and dutasteride) list gynocomastia as a potential side effect. Although full gyno is rare, the earlier stages of estrogenic side effects are usually present to some degree in users of these drugs. This includes edema and female pattern fat accumulation. In the least, elevated estrigen levels, even if they fall within the so-called normal range, tend to make cutting more difficult.

I have used finasteride for 6 years. I came off it about a year ago and within 10 days I dropped 8 lbs. This was clearly water. Excess estrogen is detrimental to cutting efforts.

BTW just because estrogen falls within the "normal range" does not mean that estrogen levels are not raised from basal in any given subject.

I would still recommend finasteride while cycling with testosterone, but would strongly suggest a very good anti-e as well.

Little late on this thread.. but I can confirm this. Was on a cycle of test/primo 1:1 ratio and my estrogen was PERFECT at 32. Switched to test/mast and topical fina sterile with 6.25 aromasin ED and my estrogen rose to 36. Felt perfect. (Blood tests were taken roughly 2 months apart from each other) but I’m holding more water while on the fin even when my estrogen is perfect.