My Visit with HAN and Dr. Overbeck

[nickatnite]

The diagnosis was insulin resistance. Due to cortisol/DHEA imbalances. I have changed my diet and activity level and the weight is still hanging around. I don't drink soda and I hardly ever eat anything sweet. I don't even drink juice anymore. In the beginning my AM Cortisol (Blood) was 7. After Cortef we got it up to 13.1 and I felt much better. From my understanding we are trying to get my testosterone up to help with the insulin resistance. When DHEA is applied topically it converts to androgens as you guys know. I was recommending by numerous people to apply to the shoulder area as there's apparently more receptors there to convert to testosterone. (I believe the information was on Primordial Performance's website. I e-mailed Eric about this and he said it is best to apply to shoulder area) HAN & Dr. O want to try and get me going without putting me on test. From my understanding once I'm on it I have to be on it forever. I really would like to try and get this squared away without that. It really sucks. I mean people are like "Change your diet" "You must eat too much" "Work out." And it's really not that. I have been working on this for over a year now. The only thing I can come up with is that when my mom was sick and I was stressed out for 8 years it pretty much had an elevated-cortisol (Cushings Syndrome) like effect. I don't know but its starting to drive me crazy. I appreciate the input. It is true about pure test isn't it? Once I'm on it I have to be on it indefinitely?

So the original diagnosis was Adrenal Fatigue with possible insulin resistance.. Now it seems it's pretty much insulin resistance. I just started taking some extra chromium so hopefully that helps a bit.

Thanks again for reading and the input. I feel like I'm hitting a brick wall sometimes.

 

[chemman]

It is true about pure test isn't it? Once I'm on it I have to be on it indefinitely?

Most likely. But if it gives you a higher quality of life, why would you ever want to stop? Usually, there are no cures to hormonal problems, only treatments.

You have two choices.

(1.) Continue wasting your time with DHEA and never get where you want.

(2.) Get on testosterone.

 

[BBC3]

I would like to point out that the DHEA in the mid nineties ( when it first got released mainstream), was NOT DHEA. I dont know what it was, but even the GNC brand juiced me senseless. 50 mgs and I had heart stress and hair loss in 7 days and had to discontinue every time. But I would get strong and ripped and the same time in a week flat. Workout for 3 plus hours. It was insane.

I can find no reasonable use of DHEA. It was a passing treatment more than a decade ago, particularly for a study finding higher levels in older adults. I did find the following articles that do show an increase in E2 levels after DHEA administration. I am aware these are in older adults.

Whether or not the DHEA increases the E2 levels is an added argument against its use. Regardless, there is absolutely NO indication for nickatnite to be given DHEA. I come back to what I asked: What is the diagnosis? What is the treatment? Once again, HAN has produced a bunch of posts with no substance (i.e, BS), provided possibly a harmful treatment and undoubtedly a totally ineffective one, and proves he is a master at obfuscation.


Nair KS, Rizza RA, O'Brien P, et al. DHEA in Elderly Women and DHEA or Testosterone in Elderly Men. N Engl J Med 2006;355(16):1647-59.

Weiss EP, Shah K, Fontana L, Lambert CP, Holloszy JO, Villareal DT. Dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy in older adults: 1- and 2-y effects on bone. Am J Clin Nutr 2009;89(5):1459-67.

 

[BigFreak]

... This made me very happy and I was extremely thankful that there's practitioners out there that want find the source of the problem, and not just treat the symptoms. ... It seems like the LOW DHEA has been the problem all a long... .

I'm glad you are feeling better, and i hope you figure out a way to make all your symptoms disappear, because thats all that matters.

I have a question about your first post, i edited the 2 relevant sentences. Do you mean that in your DNA its written that in your mid-20s your body should decrease dramatically its production on DHEA (and/or other sex-hormones)?

or did you mean the source of your problem is insuline resistance and you guys think you might be able to tackle it with DHEA?

 

[BigFreak]

"Hidden" Allergies
Another test claimed to locate "hidden allergies" is the ELISA/ACT, developed by Russell Jaffe, M.D., Ph.D., and performed by Serammune Physicians Lab (SPL), of Reston, Virginia, which Jaffe directs. This test is performed by culturing the patient's lymphocytes and seeing how they react to up to 300 foods, minerals, preservatives, and other environmental substances. After the test is completed, the practitioner (typically a chiropractor) recommends dietary modification and supplements. Although the ELISA/ACT test can assess the levels of certain immune responses, these are not necessarily related to allergy and have nothing whatsoever to do with a person's need for supplements. Moreover, many of the symptoms listed in an SPL brochure are unrelated to allergy and are not appropriately treated with supplement products.
Be Wary of "Fad" Diagnoses

that could be promising, have anyone here tried it to or know how accurate/meaningful that test is at this point? If it made it into quackwatch, it must be at least fairly helpful to some people

 

[BigFreak]

if it does not work then changes are made immediatly not 3 months down the road.

i like that. medications should be used for a few days to figure out what in the body is causing symptoms. That would help a lot to then narrow down the causes.

 

[BigFreak]

another thing, what are the different ways to attack insuline resistance, assuming the person is already on a low-carbs diet (but has abused carbs in the past and still craves sugar)

 

[BigFreak]

Edit to previous message: another thing, what are the different ways to diagnose insuline resistance and what are the different ways to cure it, assuming the person is already exercising and on a low-carbs diet (but has abused carbs in the past and still craves sugar)

 

[nickatnite]

I'm glad you are feeling better, and i hope you figure out a way to make all your symptoms disappear, because thats all that matters.

I have a question about your first post, i edited the 2 relevant sentences. Do you mean that in your DNA its written that in your mid-20s your body should decrease dramatically its production on DHEA (and/or other sex-hormones)?

or did you mean the source of your problem is insuline resistance and you guys think you might be able to tackle it with DHEA?

As far as the way my DNA was written I am not sure. I know long periods of stress can lower DHEA levels. I was stressed many years while my mom was sick and write after she passed away my business partner fucked me over and I lost my girlfriend.. All of these issues could of contributed to a decrease in DHEA. Right now we think the issue is insulin resistance caused by hormonal imbalance. We are trying to tackle it with the DHEA cream to hopefully boost my test levels and make me feel better. Ever since the DHEA I have been feeling a lot better and my libido has improved majorly. I was having weak erections for so long that when I had sex the other night I totally forgot what it was like to enjoy it that much. (Not to be graphic..) As for insulin resistance make sure you get good sleep. There's been a study recently linking sleep issues with insulin resistance. The other thing you can try is supplementing with the mineral chromium. (chromium picolinate is one of the better forms.) You can take it before/after meals.. Studies have shown that 400 mcg per day is a good base level for most adults. If you are more active or have diabetes you may need more. If you are less active or over the age of 65 you may be able to get away with 200 mcg per day. I personally just started taking 300mcg twice per day. Resistance training is also good..

 

[hardasnails1973]

By using dhea TD for a month we measure the response and changes in hormonal pattern. If that does not work then we goto clomid jumpstart. Its called taking sequential steps with one variable at a time monitoring what it does.

 

[Crazy Crew]

By using dhea TD for a month we measure the response and changes in hormonal pattern. If that does not work then we goto clomid jumpstart. Its called taking sequential steps with one variable at a time monitoring what it does.

Too provacative. Need to throw T at the problem like the books tell you. Thats what studies approve of after all.. Fall in line boy who do you think you are?

 

[Ignitionnet]

By using dhea TD for a month we measure the response and changes in hormonal pattern. If that does not work then we goto clomid jumpstart. Its called taking sequential steps with one variable at a time monitoring what it does.

Probably an odd question but that's what every decent diagnostician should do when there are no clear diagnostic tests which offer an obvious course of treatment, so where does your input come into the co-consultations? I fail to see where someone whose expertise is around nutrition and whose beliefs appear to emphasise the role of the digestive system in the endocrine system comes into a course of treatment involving treating hypogonadism with hormones and performing diagnostic tests to check the endocrine system for response. This would appear to me to be pretty standard endocrinology, ignoring the specifics of what the treatment actually is, which appears to be seeing a low number and endogenously raising it, and dealing purely in general terms.

Could you clarify this point for the interested?

Too provacative. Need to throw T at the problem like the books tell you. Thats what studies approve of after all.. Fall in line boy who do you think you are?

Unsure which studies you've read but in my case neither family doctor nor endocrinologist had any desire to throw testosterone at me, quite the opposite it was seen as absolutely the last thing to do.

 

[Substance P]

if you are low TT due to estrogen/fat shut down. Then get an AI. and throw some injectible test on the fire at TRT levels. This will be the only help.. Still you will have to be working hard and eating right, and you will still go up 3-5% body fat in first two weeks before leveling off.

Anyone care to explain or clarify this statement? I cant find any info...

 

[BBC3]

FIRST, I meant "body weight", or "water weight".

SECOND, I am just simply referring to a normal HTPA stimulus and response, that one could predict both anecdotaly, and clinically. The BIG VARIABLE is going to be the USAGE RATES that are unknown. Clearly, I am speculating my own hypothesis here. As you will not find any research on this avenue, because medical science is too ignorant on the subject of hormone replacement to have even gone there in studies.

The point was that just as increased levels of the metabolite, E2, shut down the HPTA on cycle, it also shuts it down naturally, JUST SLOWER.... As we age and become more sedentary (lower androgen demand), and we gain body fat )higher Estrogen demand/synthesis), your hypothalmus reads this a alters testosterone production accordingly. In a healthy and active male adnrogens are the primary hormonal metabolite derived from TT. I am stating that not only is the simply swing in body composition a reason for a reduction in TT production, BUT the elevated E2 is a double, or triple whammy, in that it becomes the limiting factor. And how much E2 does it take to satisfy, (or hurt) the male body? Not much. So what do you think is going to happen?

Not only that, androgen production will shut down he HPTA. Even natural Body Builders are documented with lower TT levels ( I believe I have read) Excess of anything wil shut it down. Thats the whole reason for the feedback loopl. I am simply stating that I believe that E2 is a much more impacting hormone in HPTA resonse in males, as it is the most unnatural (least used count-wise) in the species.

No you will not find the Doc, or any science, supporting my hypotheses, as they are speculative, and anecdotal at best. However, you will NOT find any studies countering them.

I challenge anyone here to find a study where testosterone has been used actively as "stress" type test. Further, how would you even start to measure its metabolites? Without applying some kind of "tag" to the applied TT, which then varied based on the metabolism of which. A serum level reading is a good "hint" as to usage. Consider a high reading could also be a sign of non-usage, at least temporarily. But even to state that serum levels are indeed directly corrolated with GENERAL hormonal metabolism SAYS NOTHING about a usage curve that probably applies as well. So it would also be my guess that an overall high serum TT reading, would indicate a faster usage rate on an increasing scale.

Anyone care to explain or clarify this statement? I cant find any info...

 

[dehook]

nickatnite/HANS - What are you trying to achieve with the TD DHEA? To raise DHEA or testosterone?

 

[BigFreak]

nickatnite/HANS - What are you trying to achieve with the TD DHEA? To raise DHEA or testosterone?

to decrease insuline resistance. I understand that the OP's pix make insuline resistance a possibility, but it seems like this could be tested more accuratly (for example correlating insulin and blood sugar levels during a glucose challenge) than using SHBG. Also, raising T and maybe raising DHEA certainly has value in decreasing insulin resistance, but i did not think this would be the first line treatment. maybe ill start a thread about that

 

[BigFreak]

As far as the way my DNA was written I am not sure. I know long periods of stress can lower DHEA levels. I was stressed many years while my mom was sick and write after she passed away my business partner fucked me over and I lost my girlfriend.. All of these issues could of contributed to a decrease in DHEA. Right now we think the issue is insulin resistance caused by hormonal imbalance. We are trying to tackle it with the DHEA cream to hopefully boost my test levels and make me feel better. Ever since the DHEA I have been feeling a lot better and my libido has improved majorly. I was having weak erections for so long that when I had sex the other night I totally forgot what it was like to enjoy it that much. (Not to be graphic..) As for insulin resistance make sure you get good sleep. There's been a study recently linking sleep issues with insulin resistance. The other thing you can try is supplementing with the mineral chromium. (chromium picolinate is one of the better forms.) You can take it before/after meals.. Studies have shown that 400 mcg per day is a good base level for most adults. If you are more active or have diabetes you may need more. If you are less active or over the age of 65 you may be able to get away with 200 mcg per day. I personally just started taking 300mcg twice per day. Resistance training is also good..

my point about the DNA was, if DHEA was indeed your problem, shouldnt you look into why your body produces less DHEA. this is not written in your genes. are you not converting enough LDL cholesterol into pregnenolone? if so why? is your ACTH/LH levels too low, thyroid too low, not enough LDL cholesterol, missing vitamins/minerals. the point of clomid is it to restart your HPTA axis (ie boost ACTH/LH/FSH)? if your body is shutting down its HPTA axis, there is a reason, and artificially boosting it by clomid is not finding "the source of your problem"

 

[nickatnite]

nickatnite/HANS - What are you trying to achieve with the TD DHEA? To raise DHEA or testosterone?

Boost testosterone, lessen insulin resistance -- give me more energy. (Which it definitely has been doing.) Before DHEA I was feeling real crappy. As far as I know applying DHEA cream will not raise DHEA levels because it gets converted to androgens (Testosterone, Estrogen.) My estrogen was really low while testing estradiol sensitive assay & estradiol 17 beta..

 

[nickatnite]

to decrease insuline resistance. I understand that the OP's pix make insuline resistance a possibility, but it seems like this could be tested more accuratly (for example correlating insulin and blood sugar levels during a glucose challenge) than using SHBG. Also, raising T and maybe raising DHEA certainly has value in decreasing insulin resistance, but i did not think this would be the first line treatment. maybe ill start a thread about that

If you go to the earlier part of the post you can also see my insulin levels which are slightly elevated..

 

[Crazy Crew]

Originally Posted by Crazy Crew
Too provacative. Need to throw T at the problem like the books tell you. Thats what studies approve of after all.. Fall in line boy who do you think you are?

Unsure which studies you've read but in my case neither family doctor nor endocrinologist had any desire to throw testosterone at me, quite the opposite it was seen as absolutely the last thing to do.

I was being satirical. Hence the smilie..