Bill Roberts: Help on 2 on 4 off cycle

[Realgains]

I've had decent results with Tren A, Dbol & Test P, but I'm looking to run a few 2-weekers without Tren A due the the issue of reduced aerobic performance. Thus, I'm looking for an alternative protocol. I was thinking about just dropping the Tren A and increasing the Test P, but to what levels... ?

I'd go big bro....like 100-150 mg/day.
Be sure to have a good AI in the mix and you can't beat letrozole.
With a big dose of T and 50 of dbol I'd recommend 1.25mg/day and start that a week before the cycle starts. Make sure to reduce that to no more than .5mg within a day of stopping the dbol. Stop the test on day 10.

Most guys get reduced aerobic capacity on any roid bro. The crippling pumps can really slow you down too. However, all this will pass as soon as a week post cycle as long as you controlled estrogen while on.

RG

 

[mac111]

Not a good choice...too weak. But you could throw it in with the below.....

The best combo for the typical guy is d-bol 50mg a day and tren ace 100mg/day for ten days(then stop, test suspension 100mg a day. Letrozole at least .5mg/day and start that a week before the cycle starts due to it's long half life(slowly builds up and slowly goes away).

If you don't have suspension you can use prop but do a 300mg front load on day one, then 100mg a day, then stop at day 10.

The dbol goes all the way through day 14.

Post cycle there is no estrogen issues due to the very short half life of suspension and dbol so PCT with a blocker or continuing on with an AI like letro doesn't do anything to restore HPTA. As Bill Roberts has said, you get no measurable testicular shrinkage so the nuts ca respond rapidly to LH. The pituitary is also hyper-sensitive to GnRH from the hypothamalus.

However, T levels will be restored very rapidly, like in days or even within a day of the dbol and and estrogen clearing....so you should take an e blocker like clomid or nolva, or an AI like letrozole. This will allow T levels to climb well above normal and help keep the gains as long as you continue to train , eat and sleep properly. In fact you can easily continue to gain.

Yes, all blockers and AI's will reduce IGF-1 levels but the resultant high T levels they give more than make up for that in the muscle building department.

You may not have a sex drive on more than .25mg of letro and some guys get a crappy sex drive from Clomid and nolva(not me).

Then after a few weeks you an stop the blocker or AI. Estrogen levels will rise if the AI is stopped, or estrogen levels will be sensed by the hypothalamus if a blocker is stopped......then a slow gradual return to your normal T output will occur over a few weeks time since these drugs have long half lives and especially letro.

I would not take Nolva or clomid long term...longer then a 3 month cycle. Too many potential sides. I would not use letrozole at a dose greater then .25 per day for any length of time. I do think low dose letro is safer to use long term than clomid or nolva but you should get your lipid profile checked after a few months "on" even .25mg of letro.

RG

how can you possibly state this? not everyone responds the same way. i see alot of generalised claims and i really dont think you should lead ppl up the garden path like this.....

 

[Realgains]

how can you possibly state this? not everyone responds the same way. i see alot of generalised claims and i really dont think you should lead ppl up the garden path like this.....

You know , the reason I left the boards years ago was because of guys like you that really don't understand and like to cut people down that actually do.

First of all I have done many many many labs on myself and my clients to back up my statements. You can believe that or not ...whatever....

Since you won't believe me, a man probably twice your age, an MD for 20 years and a professional trainer of top amateur and pro athletes, then maybe you'll believe Bill Roberts. Also, I have put HUNDREDS of long term steroid users through HPTA recovery over the years...ones that thought they'd never get their T production back.

In regards to a two weeker.....the testes DO NOT ATROPHY to any measurable degree, so they CAN IMMEDIATELY respond to LH and start pumping out T, as long as androgen and estrogen levels are below inhibitory threshold levels. In a two week period the pituitary actually gets hypersensitive to GnRH from the hypothalamus so the pituitary cranks out LOADS of LH to stimulate Testes that have not shrunk and are more than capable of restoring T levels in as little as a couple days! I have proven this with labs on myself and many clients. I personally tested out at 400ng/dl only 48 hours after the last dbol in a two weeker and that is plenty to prevent the symptoms of AIH and that level is close to the my normal level , which have had since the age of 30(500-550 ng/dl).

If the pituitary is not inhibited and the testes have not shrunk your T production is immediate....once estrogen and androgen levels have dropped sufficiently. This drop below threshold level is not hard to accomplish by day 15 of a two weeker IF you use the right gear and have controlled estrogen with an AI or at least blocked estrogen inhibitory affect with a SERM like clomd or Tamoxifen.

"For the first two weeks of the cycle, only the hypothalamus is inhibited, and it produces much less LHRH as a result of the high levels of sex hormones it senses. The pituitary is not inhibited at all: in fact, it is actually sensitized, and will respond to LHRH (if any is provided) even moreso than normally."
Bill Roberts

Cya


RG

 

[mac111]

You know , the reason I left the boards years ago was because of guys like you that really don't understand and like to cut people down that actually do.

First of all I have done many many many labs on myself and my clients to back up my statements. You can believe that or not ...whatever....

Since you won't believe me, a man probably twice your age, an MD for 20 years and a professional trainer of top amateur and pro athletes, then maybe you'll believe Bill Roberts. Also, I have put HUNDREDS of long term steroid users through HPTA recovery over the years...ones that thought they'd never get their T production back.

In regards to a two weeker.....the testes DO NOT ATROPHY to any measurable degree, so they CAN IMMEDIATELY respond to LH and start pumping out T, as long as androgen and estrogen levels are below inhibitory threshold levels. In a two week period the pituitary actually gets hypersensitive to GnRH from the hypothalamus so the pituitary cranks out LOADS of LH to stimulate Testes that have not shrunk and are more than capable of restoring T levels in as little as a couple days! I have proven this with labs on myself and many clients.

If the pituitary is not inhibited and the testes have not shrunk your T production is immediate....once estrogen and androgen levels have dropped sufficiently. This drop below threshold level is not hard to accomplish by day 15 of a two weeker IF you use the right gear and have controlled estrogen with an AI or at least blocked estrogen inhibitory affect with a SERM like clomd or Tamoxifen.

"For the first two weeks of the cycle, only the hypothalamus is inhibited, and it produces much less LHRH as a result of the high levels of sex hormones it senses. The pituitary is not inhibited at all: in fact, it is actually sensitized, and will respond to LHRH (if any is provided) even moreso than normally."
Bill Roberts

Cya


RG

ah the important words 'my clients' lol. and how the hell can you generalise how ppl will respond? wouldnt be the words of someone with quals in medicine imo 'bro'. and before you get on your high horse, im also well qualified, experienced and have competed at top national level.

nice to know you're still training at age 74 though.......

 

[Realgains]

From the original study by Bill Roberts on "Jim


"Jim reports that towards the end of week 3 he felt as if he had plenty of androgen in his system in the evenings and on arising, though that of course is a subjective evaluation. Testosterone levels should prove normal and preferably higher than the starting value in the blood tests to be done after week 4."

T levels starting (429)
At the end of the cycle day 14 (50)
Week 4 (529)

Nuff said ... I suggest you try one to see how well they actually work, and do some labs if your doctor will agree and if not you can go to independent labs and get the drawn without a doctors "order".

RG

 

[Millard]

I have used many, and guided many, 2 weekers since Bill Published his first study years ago and with great success! ALL of my clients that tried it also did really well...

They work especially week for "athletes" that are trying to gain strength and weight for sports such as ice hockey(I have several pro clients) because these guys have never used roids or testosterone or at best used them sparingly....beats the hell out for trying to add 20 pounds to your frame in the off season by training and diet alone.

In fact I have had many clients that are absolutely huge men wanting to reduce roid use but keep a great deal of size. With large doses of test suspension, d-bol and tren they have been able to do these 2 weekers with 4 weeks off(repeating) and stay very large indeed. ie: 150-200mg of suspension a day, 50-100 of dbol and 100-150 of tren , 1.25 mg of letrozole or even more depending on the amount of test used (and some use HGH 10iu's a day and some rapid acting slin)...then totally off for a month

First of all I have done many many many labs on myself and my clients to back up my statements.

If you were able to organize this data and post/publish, it would be invaluable to knowledgebase regarding this protocol.

Most of the popular forums openly discussing the use of steroids and PEDs usually revolve around their use for bodybuilding / mass-building. There is a serious lack of information about the use of PEDs for performance-specific purposes rather than hypertrophy. I would welcome greater discussion in this area.

 

[mac111]

If you were able to organize this data and post/publish, it would be invaluable to knowledgebase regarding this protocol.

Most of the popular forums openly discussing the use of steroids and PEDs usually revolve around their use for bodybuilding / mass-building. There is a serious lack of information about the use of PEDs for performance-specific purposes rather than hypertrophy. I would welcome greater discussion in this area.

me also, but just not speculative unfounded claims, coming from who knows where.

 

[mac111]

From the original study by Bill Roberts on "Jim


"Jim reports that towards the end of week 3 he felt as if he had plenty of androgen in his system in the evenings and on arising, though that of course is a subjective evaluation. Testosterone levels should prove normal and preferably higher than the starting value in the blood tests to be done after week 4."

T levels starting (429)
At the end of the cycle day 14 (50)
Week 4 (529)

Nuff said ... I suggest you try one to see how well they actually work, and do some labs if your doctor will agree and if not you can go to independent labs and get the drawn without a doctors "order".

RG

means nothing at all, any chimp could type tht out and post, so its not 'nuff said' as you put it.

if you really are an MD your vocabulary does little to portrait you as a one....

 

[mac111]

realgains, after looking through your posts and the fact you joined in 2004 yet havent posted until now lends me to the fact you are a multiple forum fraud and up to no good whatsoever. you trip up and when its pointed up you blame it on casual mistakes. if you're a doctor then i must be a rocket scientist.

the fact you seemingly have 'clients' sets my alarm bells ringing straight off. you're like a pane of glass matey. goodbye.

 

[Millard]

me also, but just not speculative unfounded claims, coming from who knows where.

realgains, after looking through your posts and the fact you joined in 2004 yet havent posted until now lends me to the fact you are a multiple forum fraud and up to no good whatsoever.

I think you are mistaken. While I am not in the habit of taking claims at face value, I find realgains to be highly credible.

I base this on various postings he's made on other sports forums that span several years ago if not back to 2004. The insight that he's shared on some of the protocols used by elite athletes seem consistent with someone in the position he claims to be.

 

[mac111]

I think you are mistaken. While I am not in the habit of taking claims at face value, I find realgains to be highly credible.

I base this on various postings he's made on other sports forums that span several years ago if not back to 2004. The insight that he's shared on some of the protocols used by elite athletes seem consistent with someone in the position he claims to be.

i dunno, ive seen the likes of him before and they've been caught out. but feel free to edit my posts mate, if required.

 

[Millard]

i dunno, ive seen the likes of him before and they've been caught out. but feel free to edit my posts mate, if required.

No need to edit out anything. Skepticism is good

Determining who is real and who is pretending is often challenging. Sometimes, I've been misled but not very often

 

[mac111]

No need to edit out anything. Skepticism is good

Determining who is real and who is pretending is often challenging. Sometimes, I've been misled but not very often

im not trying to big myself up, but ive caught some quite convincing characters out online

 

[Realgains]

Mac111

True I never posted on Mesorx until now but signed up way back in 04.

My vocabulary is purposely made simple so the average guy can understand what I am talking about. This has been a trade mark of mine...ask around. If you do a search for my thousands of posts you will see that. If you do a search you'll find I was on the boards going back to 2001 and on many boards. Many of my posts have been made sticky's and articled. Just do a search and ask some Mods and Admins. I did a great deal of posting on Cuttingedgemuscle and other forums. I stopped posting some time ago as I just got too busy and I got tired of argumentative members.


I was Realgains long before the supplement Real-Gains copied my name. lol

RG

 

[mac111]

Mac111

True I never posted on Mesorx until now but signed up way back in 04.

My vocabulary is purposely made simple so the average guy can understand what I am talking about. This has been a trade mark of mine...ask around. If you do a search for my thousands of posts you will see that. If you do a search you'll find I was on the boards going back to 2001 and on many boards. Many of my posts have been made sticky's and articled. Just do a search and ask some Mods and Admins. I did a great deal of posting on Cuttingedgemuscle and other forums. I stopped posting some time ago as I just got too busy and I got tired of argumentative members.


I was Realgains long before the supplement Real-Gains copied my name. lol

RG

i find that strange, but anyhow, fair dues. i just see alot of forums with alot of ppl who have agendas but if im wrong about you then im wrong. do you conduct online business?

 

[Realgains]

i find that strange, but anyhow, fair dues. i just see alot of forums with alot of ppl who have agendas but if im wrong about you then im wrong. do you conduct online business?

Yeah, I can understand that especially since I never posted on this forum, but seriously, ask around about me ...JBoldman, JohnnyB, Needsize, BassKiller, Quadsweep...the list of Mods and Admin goes on and on that know me well.

Online, no...it's too risky for me my work with athletes is not my main source of income anyway, I have doped a LOT of top amateur and pro athletes, and especially pro hockey players, cyclists, boxers and mixed martial artists, so I am pretty paranoid if you get my drift. I do a lot via the phone and secure email though.

About the vocabulary. Many guys have thanked me for keeping my terminology and explanations simple. This is one reason I've had so many sticky's and articles. If you read some of the stuff from the more "knowledgeable" members....and especially when they are defending themselves.....the language leaves 90% of the board in the dust. One guy that comes to mind is the late Nandi12 from Cuttingedgemuscle and even Dr. John, the HRT specialist, can get too technical. (once called Swale of T-Mag)


RG

 

[mac111]

Yeah, I can understand that especially since I never posted on this forum, but seriously, ask around about me ...JBoldman, JohnnyB, Needsize, BassKiller, Quadsweep...the list of Mods and Admin goes on and on that know me well.

Online, no...it's too risky for me my work with athletes is not my main source of income anyway, I have doped a LOT of top amateur and pro athletes, and especially pro hockey players, cyclists, boxers and mixed martial artists, so I am pretty paranoid if you get my drift. I do a lot via the phone and secure email though.

About the vocabulary. Many guys have thanked me for keeping my terminology and explanations simple. This is one reason I've had so many sticky's and articles. If you read some of the stuff from the more "knowledgeable" members....and especially when they are defending themselves.....the language leaves 90% of the board in the dust. One guy that comes to mind is the late Nandi12 from Cuttingedgemuscle and even Dr. John, the HRT specialist, can get too technical. (once called Swale of T-Mag)


RG

yeah, im tending to just stick to this forum these days, its mature and refreshingly so given that 99% of the rest are either blatant advertising or a bunch of thick headed children lying through their teeth and geeing each other on with ill fated cycles.
i caught one idiot in particular, claimed he was a trt doctor and 12mths previous he was on another forum asking how he should run his 1st cycle ffs!! and he was dealing home brew on another, he was so stupid he hadnt the brains to change his username from forum to forum

ive encountered so many like that.....

 

[Realgains]

I forgot to mention something pretty significant re: Jim's T recovery from the original Bill Roberts case study(2 weeks "on", 4 weeks "off").

This was the steroid usage plan. (not including AI's and clomid)

Day 1: 100 mg (200 IU) Tren ace in morning. 10 mg Dbol five times per day in divided doses

Days 3-11: 50 mg (100 IU) TA/day, and 50 mg Diana as above.

Days 12-14: No TA, but otherwise same as days 3-11.

Weeks 3 and 4: Diana 10 mg on arising, and 10 mg four hours later.and Anavar 20 mg on arising.

His T level after week 4 was STILL over 500ng/dl in spite of the continued morning use of low dose orals. Bill Roberts no longer recommends this as he knows it's inhibitory.

So my point is this....his T level would have been much higher than the 500's if he had avoided the low dose morning orals. The clomid and AI that he used would have pushed his T well about 1000ng/dl by the end of week 4, WELL above his own personal physiological normal T level and well above "high normal" for even a lucky 19 year old.

I personally have recovered T very rapidly very very soon after stopping 2 week cycles as have all my clients that have done 2 weekers AND had labs drawn . I don't even do labs any more because it's a waste of time and money...everyone recovers very rapidly.

However, if you do repeated 2 weeks "on" and 2 weeks "off"(as opposed to 4 weeks off) cycles you will see some testicular shrinkage and slower recovery of normal HPTA function. Bill Roberts mentions this too. In fact I started to test guys that were doing two 2 and 2 repeatedly because of Bills comments.(years ago).

RG

 

[ergomaniac]

Wow I've seen you on the cycling forums and your knowledge is intimidating. So I have a question for you.

The 2 week on 4 off cycle intrigues me. I have a small stockpile of epistane and superdrol I've been itching to use. I've also got Tamoxifen citrate.

Would a 2 week on 4 off cycle be useful with a oral like epistane @ 40-50mg ish? If so, what would I dose the Nolvadex at?

not to start arguements. disscussion perhaps.
RG you say dont bother with that stuff. superdrol is said to be really powerful. mostly for strength. some people get bad sides. some dont. some do with things like tren and some get really painful pumps with dbol.
epistane by another name same drug interests me and ive asked about running it before. in both anabolics 2007 and anabolic pharmacology the write up seems good. and feedback on it good too. a strong androgen that acts as an aromatase inhibitor. thats what it is. a methylated ai. like 11 times more powerful than methyl test. 1/10 as androgenic. i know those numbers arent to be taken literally as other factors come into play. but why not. theyre steroids. i also still have some methyl-1 test as i stocked up before the ban. i gained ten pounds in three weeks on a low cal cyclic ketogenic diet. its still good. and some people love that stuff. good reviews even on this site. just a question. other real steroids not hard to get. i just like some of the properties of these. and with some nolva that would be so easy and carefree. steroid. serm. as the simplest cycle. and i know theres more advanced to gain more.

 

[ergomaniac]

If you were able to organize this data and post/publish, it would be invaluable to knowledgebase regarding this protocol.

Most of the popular forums openly discussing the use of steroids and PEDs usually revolve around their use for bodybuilding / mass-building. There is a serious lack of information about the use of PEDs for performance-specific purposes rather than hypertrophy. I would welcome greater discussion in this area.

that would be interesting. as his clientele seems to be diverse.
i wonder if wada would welcome greater discussion [)]. who cares.