TRT does NOT...

[Sonny]

make a fertile man infertile.

#2 is on the way.

I got her on the first try this time. It took us 6 months the first time. I'm sure the HCG didn't hurt any either. It has made me feel like Peter North.

Sonny

 

[aleaver]

Thats great news! Congratulations! ....What is your trt regimen btw?

 

[HeadDoc]

really great news. I am very happy for the both of you.

 

[mranak]

I'm sure the HCG didn't hurt any either.

Yes, without the hCG your intratesticular testosterone will be near zero and you aren't likely to be fertile like that.

Congratulations!

 

[mxim]

took me btween 2 and 3 months on the first 2 and 6 months on the most recent,my wife is 3 months pregnant. i was off everything for 6 months and no dice until i started using a little hcg believe it or not. my first 2 children were convieved after 6 monyths of being off as well. i did clomid for a 10 weeks and then waited a month or 2 without anything and bamm!!!!
anyway,without hcg,you would be sterile,although it comes back after cessation of TRT.
mxim

 

[SWALE]

At appropriate TRT doses, I do not believe HCG is necessary to maintain adequate fertility.

 

[mranak]

At appropriate TRT doses, I do not believe HCG is necessary to maintain adequate fertility.

If the testes (and most especially the sertoli cells) atrophy, then that isn't a good sign from my perspective, but I'm not the expert, and you are, so ...

 

[Kroms_laugh]

w00t!!!!!

Congrats, bro!

 

[DavidZ]

At appropriate TRT doses, I do not believe HCG is necessary to maintain adequate fertility.

Interesting comment. Not sure what to make of it.

Let's take 3 men. "Man A" has low T, but isn't on TRT. "Man B" is on "appropriate TRT" with no HCG. And "Man C" is on "appropriate TRT" with HCG.

One can say that all 3 men have "adequate fertility" but I suspect that would depend upon many factors including the woman he's trying to impregnate. Fertility is relative not absolute. The relevant question, IMO, is -- what is Man B's fertility relative to Man A and Man C?

Congrats, Sonny!

 

[cpeil2]

Don't read more into that comment then is there. I would simply read it as saying that appropriate TRT does not adversely effect a man's fertitility. The fact that he may have had a fertility problem before he started TRT is a separate issue. External factors such as his wife's fertility are also separate issues.

 

[DavidZ]

Don't read more into that comment then is there. I would simply read it as saying that appropriate TRT does not adversely effect a man's fertitility. The fact that he may have had a fertility problem before he started TRT is a separate issue. External factors such as his wife's fertility are also separate issues.

Isn't saying that a man's fertility is "adequate" about as useful as saying that a man's T is "normal?"

 

[cpeil2]

Isn't saying that a man's fertility is "adequate" about as useful as saying that a man's T is "normal?"

I understand the issue, but I think it is an abstraction that lacks practical value.

We, on this board, understand that "normal testosterone," conventionally understood, is a statistical phenomenon that doesn't really say anything about what is optimal and healthy for the individual.

"Adequate fertility" only has meaning if a guy fathers a child. If he does, bingo, he is adequately fertile. But, if he doesn't, is he not adequately fertile? Who can say? You're right. "Adequate fertility" is pretty hard to pin down without the endpoint of fathering a child.

But all of this needlessly complicates the issue when SWALE was merely observing that appropriate TRT will not adversely affect a man's fertility. I would understand that to mean that whatever fertility level, adequate or not, a man comes to TRT with, he can expect that appropriate TRT will not adversely affect it.

Enhancement of fertility, or correction of "inadequate fertility" is a separate, but certainly closely-related, issue.

 

[DavidZ]

But all of this needlessly complicates the issue when SWALE was merely observing that appropriate TRT will not adversely affect a man's fertility.

The problem is that I've always understood that TRT decreases fertility due to suppression of the HPTA. TRT with HCG will increase fertility, but, AFAIK, TRT alone will reduce it.

A good example of what I'm saying is the bro who started this thread. Sonny, the lucky father-to-be, couldn't conceive while on TRT alone. He switched to HCG alone and succeeded on the first try.

 

[Random987]

I think the general consensus is that proper TRT (with HCG) will not lead to irreversible infertility. I think any type of TRT, even HCG only, will likely shut down the HPTA and stop spermogensis. So, if you are on TRT, and want to have kids, you will need to start HCG and possibly HMG.

 

[DavidZ]

I think any type of TRT, even HCG only, will likely shut down the HPTA and stop spermogensis.

But that's not what Swale said. He said "appropriate TRT" only without HCG will maintain fertility.

With regard to HCG alone, you're not correct. HCG stimulates sperm production. In fact, HCG is commonly prescribed to men for fertility purposes (see AACE guidelines). That's why most insurance companies refuse to cover HCG at first. They assume it's a fertility treatment.

Also, many doctors refuse to prescribe HCG to men unless it's for fertility purposes.

 

[Sonny]

We had our first kid in 2002 when TRT was not even in the picture yet. I didn't start "serious" TRT until April of 2004. Our first kid ended up taking awhile simply because the wife had recently gone off birth control and our guess in terms of "the right time" was off by almost a week. We "guessed" that she was ovulating around day 13. The monitor that we bought showed that it was more like day 19.

We made no attempts to have another child while I was on Testosterone alone. It was mainly because I felt like shit most of the time. I did go through a whole rollercoaster of bad treatment regimens (400 mg every 3-4 weeks, then 200 mg every 2-3 weeks, etc) before finding Swale's methods. Swale is who brought HCG into the picture for me and that's when things started looking up.

I am on an HCG alone right now, but I still consider it TRT because my body has levels of T that it was not able to have prior to treatment. The R aka "replacement" is being supplied by my body, but it is being influenced by a replacement "enhancer".

Perhaps the title is a little misleading, but what can I say? I'm excited!

Sonny

 

[SWALE]

Congrats, Sonny.

I knew you had it in you.

 

[Random987]

Hmmmm....I guess that is what Swale said. But I was under the impression that HCG (which mimics LH) only stimulates the testes to produce Testosterone. I thought that FSH stimulates spermogenesis in the testes. So, if you are on TRT, and your HPTA is suppressed, even if on HCG, you testes will not produce (or will greatly reduce) your ability to create sperm. I know that many fertility docs start with HCG as a regimine fertility regimine, but I also know that they switch to HMG if there is an issue regarding creation of sperm.

But that's not what Swale said. He said "appropriate TRT" only without HCG will maintain fertility.

With regard to HCG alone, you're not correct. HCG stimulates sperm production. In fact, HCG is commonly prescribed to men for fertility purposes (see AACE guidelines). That's why most insurance companies refuse to cover HCG at first. They assume it's a fertility treatment.

Also, many doctors refuse to prescribe HCG to men unless it's for fertility purposes.

 

[BigRagu]

Hmmmm....I guess that is what Swale said. But I was under the impression that HCG (which mimics LH) only stimulates the testes to produce Testosterone. I thought that FSH stimulates spermogenesis in the testes. So, if you are on TRT, and your HPTA is suppressed, even if on HCG, you testes will not produce (or will greatly reduce) your ability to create sperm. I know that many fertility docs start with HCG as a regimine fertility regimine, but I also know that they switch to HMG if there is an issue regarding creation of sperm.

yes but i believe that HCG also mimics fsh...................

 

[cpeil2]

yes but i believe that HCG also mimics fsh...................

hCG, TSH and FSH all share the same alpha subunit, but each molecule has a unique beta subunit.