Bill Roberts: Help on 2 on 4 off cycle

tgfan

New Member
I've been reading, and re-reading you 2 on 4 off cycle plan. I'm a little confused. Please could you explain the setup for me because it looks like the case study plan you have written out there are anabolics in weeks 1-5, and only 6 is clean. So, I have 3 questions:

1: Weeks 1-2 on a short acting steroid, and then 4 weeks off but clomid weeks 1-5? (Day 1 high dosed)

2: if so, how much time between starting again would be recommend? i.e. should there be any time between cycles when you're completely drug free?

3: if I take a non-aromatising drug like winni, anavar or OTC like epistane (half life 6hrs), would I still need an AI? (is the AI involved in boosting LNRH/LH/Test or is just to prevent test-est conversion?

Thanks for taking the time to answer these probably obvious questions. it is a big help!
 
Back at that time I favored low-dose morning-only use of orals in the first couple of off-weeks but later I learned, by comparison of blood tests, that recovery was slower this way even though in the absence of a preceding 2-week cycle, morning oral-only use can be pretty light in inhibitory effect.

So what you see is a case study that was done exactly that way, and so it's written exactly that way. But now and for some time there are no orals anabolics in the off weeks.

Also, back then Arimidex was very expensive and hard to obtain, and letrozole was little-known in bodybuilding and probably even harder to obtain. So where aromatizable steroids were taken in substantial doses, a SERM such as Clomid was needed for gyno protection.

The better and now-practical approach is to use an AI if using substantial amounts of aromatizing steroids. If not doing so, then neither an AI nor a SERM is needed during the "on" weekls.

So where gyno protection isn't an issue either due to using an AI or due to using only moderate or no aromatizing steroids, Clomid is used only in the off weeks, starting Day 15 at 300 mg and thereafter at 50 mg/day. If one is sensitive to Clomid, my first preference is to split the SERM dosage between Clomid and Nolvadex half-and-half, so Clomid is 150 mg on Day 1 in divided doses and 25 mg/day thereafter (or 50 mg EOD) and Nolvadex use is 60 mg on Day 1 in divided doses and 10 mg/day thereafter.

The last choice, to me, is Nolvadex 120 mg on Day 1 in divided doses and 20 mg/day thereafter. Nolvadex alone may do as well as either of the above two in terms of testosterone recovery but there seems a greater incidence of libido problems with Nolvadex when used alone.

As to time off, a way of looking at it is:

Twice as long "off" as on: Conservative, yet effective over the course of time.
Equal time "off" as on: More aggressive, pushing it a little, but not greatly
Half as much time "off" as on: Aggressive, definitely pushing it, about as far as one can go before things start being much more similar to being "on" all the time than to actually being cycling.

These protocols, or anything inbetween, can be mixed during any given training year. In other words, if wanting to have a period of a few 2 on / 1 off's and then a later period of doing several 2 on / 4 off's, that's okay.

When using trenbolone acetate as the longest-acting drug -- HCG not being present -- and using it only 11 days if 50 mg/day, or 10 days if 100 mg/day, then if libido, energy, well-being, and gym performance is definitely fine at the end of the first off-week, then it's okay in my experience to go right into another cycle. If not, then the next cycle definitely should wait until feeling fine, and more preferably until feeling fine for at least as long as there had been any slump. E.g., if having a rough week, then feel fine for at least a week before the next two week cycle.

But ordinarily the recovery is so fast with the 2 week cycles, when done so that levels are not significantly suppressive on Day 15, that such slumps don't occur. A day or two of being a bit below par is the most there will ordinarily be and often not even that.
 
Mr. Roberts. Last week you asked me to try to find where you had recommended 1mg/day of Arimidex so you could update it. Well, I found it today.

It is here:

Inhibition and Recovery of Natural Testosterone Production by Bill Roberts

Arimidex: This accomplishes the same purposes as Cytadren but without the possible side effects mentioned above. It is however far more expensive. A typical dose is 1 mg./day. The timing of the dosage does not matter, since the drug has a long half-life.

I remembered it as being associated with the case study, because I arrived at this page by clicking a link within the case study, which led to another study with a link in it, and that link brought me to this page.
 
Thanks Bill for taking the time to help me out this much. I just have 3 follow up questions regarding this:

So where gyno protection isn't an issue either due to using an AI or due to using only moderate or no aromatizing steroids, Clomid is used only in the off weeks, starting Day 15 at 300 mg and thereafter at 50 mg/day. If one is sensitive to Clomid, my first preference is to split the SERM dosage between Clomid and Nolvadex half-and-half, so Clomid is 150 mg on Day 1 in divided doses and 25 mg/day thereafter (or 50 mg EOD) and Nolvadex use is 60 mg on Day 1 in divided doses and 10 mg/day thereafter.

1: If I'm sensitive to clomid, i run it during the 2 weeks of anabolics and for 3 weeks after, but if i'm not sensitive to it, i start on day 15? that correct? if so, what do you mean by being sensitive to clomid?

2: should the clomid be run to week 5 even if it was started on day 1? if not, when should I stop it?

3: once week 5 is over, 1 week off, and then safe to repeat?


sorry for the follow questions, but I want to get this perfect as I think your 2 on 4 off approach is great
 
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Mr. Roberts. Last week you asked me to try to find where you had recommended 1mg/day of Arimidex so you could update it. Well, I found it today.

It is here:

Inhibition and Recovery of Natural Testosterone Production by Bill Roberts



I remembered it as being associated with the case study, because I arrived at this page by clicking a link within the case study, which led to another study with a link in it, and that link brought me to this page.

Thank you! It will be fixed! :)
 
Thanks Bill for taking the time to help me out this much. I just have 3 follow up questions regarding this:

1: If I'm sensitive to clomid, i run it during the 2 weeks of anabolics and for 3 weeks after, but if i'm not sensitive to it, i start on day 15? that correct? if so, what do you mean by being sensitive to clomid?

2: should the clomid be run to week 5 even if it was started on day 1? if not, when should I stop it?

3: once week 5 is over, 1 week off, and then safe to repeat?


sorry for the follow questions, but I want to get this perfect as I think your 2 on 4 off approach is great

I'm sorry, I used two different counting methods on the days, which is utterly confusing. In one case I wrote Day 1 meaning day 1 of the off weeks, and in the other I called that day "Day 15," doing the counting from the first day of the "on" weeks. Completely confusing.

Clomid isn't needed during the on weeks when elevated estrogen isn't an issue. Usage starts on the first day of the off weeks, which in the case of the two week cycles is day 15 of the entire overall program.

I was referring to emotional side effects of the Clomid, when talking about being sensitive to it.
 
thanks bill, your advice is great.

last question, time off = time on clomid + the week off?

I will try this out this summer/autumn
 
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Plus, 1 final last question, on this 2 on 4 off plan, my final idea is:

- 2 weeks of steroids: I'm eyeing up a prohormone called epistane made by IBE/RPN, and take it upon waking only at a typical normal cycle dose of 40mg (it's mildly suppressive) and its half life is 6 hours

- 3 weeks of clomid: dosage scheme as you laid out

- 1 week off: assuming I feel recovered

- repeat.

I plan to repeat this 3 times, sound reasonable?

Thanks again Bill!!
 
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Yes, on the 2 week cycles, everything after the 14 days "on" counts as "off." This is because dosing is planned so that levels are not substantially suppressive or in the case of orals may be actually non-suppressive by the 15th day after starting steroid use.

If using only epistane and morning-only, 3 weeks of Clomid would be overkill I think. I'd be completely happy with one week in that instance, or a maximum of two weeks.

This would be fine for doing 3 times, or more.
 
I hate hijacking threads for my own questions however since it appears the OP already had his answered and mine is very brief I hope you can answer this for me bill.

My question: How long after ceasing a 500mg/week cycle, after the last shot of 250mg T-enanthate, before my test levels return to a "normal" range or at least a range I can convincingly blame on D3 and d-aspartic acid? Essentially looking for a doctor to give me a script for therapeutic phlebotomy due to my rbc levels; don't want my cycle usage to interfere with his decision as my levels are at a dangerous level at the moment. Thanks bill!
 
At that dosage of testosterone enanthate, at the 3 week point if testosterone levels are low-normal, the greater majority of this would be from natural production, or if levels are mid-normal or better, almost all of it would be from natural production.

At the 2 week point, if levels are mid-normal then natural production would be low-normal or close to it. If at that point levels are high-normal, that won't be from remaining injection but from good natural production.
 
I have used many, and guided many, 2 weekers since Bill Published his first study years ago and with great success! ALL of my clients that tried it also did really well.

Those that say it cannot work need to try them..they work! As Bill has repeatedly said you have to use fast acting , fast clearing and powerful gear and pretty large doses. They are not going to take a top man to the Mr. Olympia title lol, but they do work.

They work especially week for "athletes" that are trying to gain strength and weight for sports such as ice hockey(I have several pro clients) because these guys have never used roids or testosterone or at best used them sparingly....beats the hell out for trying to add 20 pounds to your frame in the off season by training and diet alone.


In fact I have had many clients that are absolutely huge men wanting to reduce roid use but keep a great deal of size. With large doses of test suspension, d-bol and tren they have been able to do these 2 weekers with 4 weeks off(repeating) and stay very large indeed. ie: 150-200mg of suspension a day, 50-100 of dbol and 100-150 of tren , 1.25 mg of letrozole or even more depending on the amount of test used (and some use HGH 10iu's a day and some rapid acting slin)...then totally off for a month


I never did the low dose dbol for even a week after day 14 for the reason Bill states in this post...it's suppressive. The idea is to get loaded up fast, train hard, sleep and eat well and then get the stuff cleared....so it really is only a 14-15 day cycle. This way you avoid most sides and recovery very fast and gain too.

I have tried many combinations of roids and testosterone. I still like D-bol and tren ace the best but prop or preferable suspension is good to add too. I find best results are seen with high doses...50 -100 mg of d-bol for 14 days and 75-100mg of tren for 10-11 days after a 150mg front load on day one....or huge doses for hiuge men way above their natural maximum body size. I also recommend a lot of letrozole at 1mg per day and doing 50mg a day for the week or two leading up to start day.

I always recommend doing all the d-bol in one dose a couple hours before your workout so you get peak blood levels in the critical hours post training. However, on non workout days I recommend splitting the dose over three doses just to keep a steady highish blood level.

Forget about weaker roids like winstrol and Var etc...go big or go home. Suppression and sides are NOT an issue in a 2 weeker.
Don't use long acting esters of test...or you'll be "on" for way longer then two weeks simply due to their half lives.

OH...drol alone make a great cycle too at 50mg twice a day. There isn't damn thing you can do for drol bloat, and it comes on fast, which is why I don't prefer it. You can combine drol and tren too or add some suspension. etc etc.


PCT
For SERMS I prefer Nolva always and here is why. I tested Nolva and Clomid alone on myself while off cycle on two different occasions. Both times my starting T levels where about 500-550ng/dl(normal unsuppressed levels for me). I took each for two weeks and then did free and total T levels.
On the clomid alone I got to a to 1100 and 1125ng/dl in 14 days. On the Nolva I got to 1223 and 1245 ng/dl. Test were done at the same time of day each time too , 9am.

I had a sex drive on both...actually a high sex drive.


By the way I also tried letrozole alone at 1mg per day for 2 weeks. NO sex drive at all....very very low estrogen and a T of 1400!!! Estrogen is important for sex drive! Note: I had no problem getting "wood" if I wanted to ....I just had absolutely no sex drive lol.

You don't need a SERM for PCT if you are using an aromataze inhibitor during the cycle and with test prop, suspension or d-bol you better. After the cycle is done continue with 50mg of letrozole for a couple weeks. The 1mg dose during the cycle is still hanging around anyways since letro has a long half life.
If you want to stay on the letro longer then a couple weeks I recommend dropping the dose to 25mg per day as it can really hammer estrogen levels down(and jack T) and you don't want too low an estrogen level re: joint health, cramping, hdl cholesterol suppression and sex drive.

TRAINING
While "on" you want to train really intensely with preferably a lowish volume and the big basic compound movements predominantly and especially the full squat or dead lift or trap bar dead lift. Train either every other day on a 2 way split, which hits each muscle group directly once every 4th day OR on a three way split with 3 days "on" one day "off" repeating and that too hits each group once every 4th day. The last day of the cycle is an oral only in the am , the entire daily dose..then workout. That gives you 4 workouts for each muscle group for the cycle. Tren or prop stopped on day 10 or 11 depending on the dose. Then go back to training each muscle group directly no more frequently than once every 6th day and still train pretty hard but with less intensifiers like forced reps etc and also reduce the volume but try to keep the weights used in working sets the same.



Cheers
RG:)
 
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I have used many, and guided many, 2 weekers since Bill Published his first study years ago and with great success! ALL of my clients that tried it also did really well.

Are you the same Realgains that posts re: doping on other bodybuilding and pro cycling forums? If so, I have enjoyed your posts on those forums. At any rate, welcome to MESO :)
 
I was Realgains way before the supplement "Real Gains" lol
yes

RG :)

Very cool - (y)

I followed your banning on one cycling forum after you posted about what cyclists are really doing. PED in cycling seems to be much more "underground", forum admin are quick to shut down discussion.
 
You don't need a SERM for PCT if you are using an aromataze inhibitor during the cycle and with test prop, suspension or d-bol you better. After the cycle is done continue with 50mg of letrozole for a couple weeks. The 1mg dose during the cycle is still hanging around anyways since letro has a long half life.
If you want to stay on the letro longer then a couple weeks I recommend dropping the dose to 25mg per day as it can really hammer estrogen levels down(and jack T) and you don't want too low an estrogen level re: joint health, cramping, hdl cholesterol suppression and sex drive.

im interested in this type of use as im not looking towards hrt at all unless necessary. which id dont see in the near future. im a bit wary of long cycles and recovery issues. grounded in fact or not. mostly fact. ive never really cycled. and im still young and able. and not looking to get massive. ie 250lbs ripped. im looking for strength and cuts. for the most part. thats me. athletic. but ive never been HUGE. probably a blast though. at least for a bit.
50mg ed of letro? sounds like alot. like 50 times a normal dose. ive read letro is powerful. an ai with aromatizing drugs will cause less supresion? or less sides? without an ai should a serm be used as pct? and nolva has a long half life. seven days if im correct. what dose.
what about not aromatizing drugs. how would a non aromatizing steroid in a two week cycle work. would it lower estrogen through aromatase competition. comparable to an ai. a serm for a short pct? or more ai?
high dose test suspension or dbol will be affected by aromatase. some other drugs wont. how would they fit in. lots of vague questions sort of. 8-12 week cycles are pretty well documented. this not so much but im drawn into it.
bill roberts or realgains. someone with knowledge.
 
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You don't need a SERM for PCT if you are using an aromataze inhibitor during the cycle and with test prop, suspension or d-bol you better. After the cycle is done continue with 50mg of letrozole for a couple weeks. The 1mg dose during the cycle is still hanging around anyways since letro has a long half life.
If you want to stay on the letro longer then a couple weeks I recommend dropping the dose to 25mg per day as it can really hammer estrogen levels down(and jack T) and you don't want too low an estrogen level re: joint health, cramping, hdl cholesterol suppression and sex drive.

im interested in this type of use as im not looking towards hrt at all unless necessary. which id dont see in the near future. im a bit wary of long cycles and recovery issues. grounded in fact or not. mostly fact. ive never really cycled. and im still young and able. and not looking to get massive. ie 250lbs ripped. im looking for strength and cuts. for the most part. thats me. athletic. but ive never been HUGE. probably a blast though. at least for a bit.
50mg ed of letro? sounds like alot. like 50 times a normal dose. ive read letro is powerful. an ai with aromatizing drugs will cause less supresion? or less sides? without an ai should a serm be used as pct? and nolva has a long half life. seven days if im correct. what dose.
what about not aromatizing drugs. how would a non aromatizing steroid in a two week cycle work. would it lower estrogen through aromatase competition. comparable to an ai. a serm for a short pct? or more ai?
high dose test suspension or dbol will be affected by aromatase. some other drugs wont. how would they fit in. lots of vague questions sort of. 8-12 week cycles are pretty well documented. this not so much but im drawn into it.
bill roberts or realgains. someone with knowledge.


Regardless of AI use during the cycle, AIH will still occur.
 
Regardless of AI use during the cycle, AIH will still occur.

with 2 weeks of usage. dispite dosage. or drugs. i was under the impression thats why this is a viable alternative.
but how much suppression. how fast towards recovery.
some drugs more suppressive than other. does more suppression = more gains or no. im under the impression that theres three pathways to suppress. test. est. and progest. hit all three and itll shut you down. some others not so much. or is the reality cycle, supress. and then pct. back to normal under ideal circumstance.
 
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