MESO-Rx Exclusive Unique characteristics of oxandrolone

[MESO-Rx Administrator]

MESO-Rx is pleased to announce part 7 in @Type-IIx 's ongoing series about the unique effects of various different anabolic steroids with today's article focusing on oxandrolone. Oxandrolone (Anavar) is a mild anabolic steroid known for reducing abdominal fat, enhancing strength via creatine synthesis, and anticatabolic effects through AR-GR crosstalk. While well-tolerated, it poses dyslipidemic risks.

Oxandrolone Insights: Unique Characteristics of Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids – Part 7

Oxandrolone (Anavar) reduces abdominal fat, boosts strength via creatine synthesis, with anticatabolic effects but poses a dyslipidemic risk.

thinksteroids.com

 

[narta]

Good read as always

 

[rexy]

Awesome. I'm assuming there is a dose-response for the ab fat effect; is it 'optimised' at 20-40mg per day?

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Love me some oxandrolone. Great read. TypeII FTW.

 

[OldGHGuy]

Great read as usual!

A few questions:

1) Regarding creatine synthesis - Does supplementing creatine while on Var multiply (or at least increase and/or feed) the increased synthesis mechanism?

2) I have always split Var daily dosages 1/2 AM,1/2 PM AND taken each with a small amount of coffee which research has shown to increase effects. Is there a recommended protocol based on your research?

3) Does Var as a pre-workout only (only on workout days) make sense from a strength/fat burning standpoint and would this approach minimize negative lipid consequences? Trade-off is my guess but I have never experimented.

 

[Type-IIx]

BOOM! Article dropped! Thanks, @Millard!

Awesome. I'm assuming there is a dose-response for the ab fat effect; is it 'optimised' at 20-40mg per day?

Oxandrolone at 20 mg daily decreased visceral adipose tissue (-20.9 +/- 12 cm(2); P < 0.001), abdominal sc adipose tissue (SAT) declined (-10.7 +/- 12.1 cm(2); P = 0.043), the ratio VAT/SAT declined from 0.57 +/- 0.23 to 0.49 +/- 0.19 (P = 0.002), and proximal and distal thigh SC fat declined [-8.3 +/- 6.7 cm(2) (P < 0.001) and -2.2 +/- 3.0 kg (P = 0.004), respectively].

Oxandrolone at 10 mg daily for 7 days increased fasting 3-hydroxybutyrate [a marker for hepatic ketogenesis] by 70% and 3-hydroxybutyrate AUC by 53% after oral fat loading.

We know that AR dose/response is logarithmic and according to Forbes, 1985, doses up to 1,000 mg/w are not S-shaped (sigmoidal function), but if an androgen's sole mechanism is AR agonism, then an inflection point should occur at some point > 1,000 mg/w [that has never been directly measured].

Since this effect on fat mass is mediated by hepatic ketogenesis via oxandrolone effects on triaglycerol lipase, and the doses used are low, we can't infer or assume the shape of the dose/response curve without more data.

That is to say, that while 20 - 40 mg daily is a rough optimization of tolerability/efficacy trade-offs, considering muscle protein anabolism via the AR activity that is bounded by inherent hepatotoxicity of oxandrolone, we cannot say that hepatic ketogenesis does not continue unabated at higher doses.

But practically, since hepatic ketogenesis is directly related to HTGLA (the breakdown of lipoproteins from larger to smaller more atherosclerotic ones), we need to balance the benefit vs. the dyslipidemic cost.

 

[Type-IIx]

Great read as usual!

A few questions:

1) Regarding creatine synthesis - Does supplementing creatine while on Var multiply (or at least increase and/or feed) the increased synthesis mechanism?

Good questions today!

Since muscle phosphocreatine (PCr) stores are theoretically repleted just by 5 g creatine monohydrate ingested daily for 28 days, it's unlikely that that can be super-compensated [unlike muscle glycogen stores]. Muscle PCr stores basically max out in humans around 1 kg, but often much less, in untrained adults.

I can give you more context here. Let's talk about muscle PCr stores in more detail.

An absolutely yoked, Olympia -winning or contender 130 kg superheavyweight at ~ 6% body fat might carry up to 100 kg (220 lb) of actual skeletal muscle. PCr concentrations in wet muscle is approximately 120 - 150 mol/kg. Wet muscle (given high water content) is approximately 75% of the muscle weight or 75 kg. PCr concentrations are 120 - 150 mmol/kg of wet muscle weight. Since 1 mmol PCr has a molecular weight of ~ 133 g/mol, we can calculate:

100 kg * 75% * 150 mmol/kg * 0.133 kg/mol = 1,496.25 g as an absolute theoretical maximal phosphocreatine storage in man. Although, ~ 500 g in a normal human is more typical.

The point of this exercise is to illustrate the point that these aren't massive stores. It's quite likely in my estimation that either 20 - 30 mg weekly oxandrolone or 5 g of creatine monohydrate daily are sufficient to maximally replete total creatine stores. I don't think synergy is necessary, since either one will likely totally replete PCr.

2) I have always split Var daily dosages 1/2 AM,1/2 PM AND taken each with a small amount of coffee which research has shown to increase effects. Is there a recommended protocol based on your research?

I don't do any of that. Which research shows a small amount of coffee to increase oxandrolone potency?

3) Does Var as a pre-workout only (only on workout days) make sense from a strength/fat burning standpoint and would this approach minimize negative lipid consequences? Trade-off is my guess but I have never experimented.

Sure does for that use case! I find the acute effects on strength from Var to be better than any other drug.

 

[rexy]

BOOM! Article dropped! Thanks, @Millard!

Oxandrolone at 20 mg daily decreased visceral adipose tissue (-20.9 +/- 12 cm(2); P < 0.001), abdominal sc adipose tissue (SAT) declined (-10.7 +/- 12.1 cm(2); P = 0.043), the ratio VAT/SAT declined from 0.57 +/- 0.23 to 0.49 +/- 0.19 (P = 0.002), and proximal and distal thigh SC fat declined [-8.3 +/- 6.7 cm(2) (P < 0.001) and -2.2 +/- 3.0 kg (P = 0.004), respectively].

Oxandrolone at 10 mg daily for 7 days increased fasting 3-hydroxybutyrate [a marker for hepatic ketogenesis] by 70% and 3-hydroxybutyrate AUC by 53% after oral fat loading.

We know that AR dose/response is logarithmic and according to Forbes, 1985, doses up to 1,000 mg/w are not S-shaped (sigmoidal function), but if an androgen's sole mechanism is AR agonism, then an inflection point should occur at some point > 1,000 mg/w [that has never been directly measured].

Since this effect on fat mass is mediated by hepatic ketogenesis via oxandrolone effects on triaglycerol lipase, and the doses used are low, we can't infer or assume the shape of the dose/response curve without more data.

That is to say, that while 20 - 40 mg daily is a rough optimization of tolerability/efficacy trade-offs, considering muscle protein anabolism via the AR activity that is bounded by inherent hepatotoxicity of oxandrolone, we cannot say that hepatic ketogenesis does not continue unabated at higher doses.

But practically, since hepatic ketogenesis is directly related to HTGLA (the breakdown of lipoproteins from larger to smaller more atherosclerotic ones), we need to balance the benefit vs. the dyslipidemic cost.

Thank you for the detailed response, as always

 

[pipo]

Good questions today!

Since muscle phosphocreatine (PCr) stores are theoretically repleted just by 5 g creatine monohydrate ingested daily for 28 days, it's unlikely that that can be super-compensated [unlike muscle glycogen stores]. Muscle PCr stores basically max out in humans around 1 kg, but often much less, in untrained adults.

I can give you more context here. Let's talk about muscle PCr stores in more detail.

An absolutely yoked, Olympia -winning or contender 130 kg superheavyweight at ~ 6% body fat might carry up to 100 kg (220 lb) of actual skeletal muscle. PCr concentrations in wet muscle is approximately 120 - 150 mol/kg. Wet muscle (given high water content) is approximately 75% of the muscle weight or 75 kg. PCr concentrations are 120 - 150 mmol/kg of wet muscle weight. Since 1 mmol PCr has a molecular weight of ~ 133 g/mol, we can calculate:

100 kg * 75% * 150 mmol/kg * 0.133 kg/mol = 1,496.25 g as an absolute theoretical maximal phosphocreatine storage in man. Although, ~ 500 g in a normal human is more typical.

The point of this exercise is to illustrate the point that these aren't massive stores. It's quite likely in my estimation that either 20 - 30 mg weekly oxandrolone or 5 g of creatine monohydrate daily are sufficient to maximally replete total creatine stores. I don't think synergy is necessary, since either one will likely totally replete PCr.

I don't do any of that. Which research shows a small amount of coffee to increase oxandrolone potency?

Sure does for that use case! I find the acute effects on strength from Var to be better than any other drug.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.adop.pt/media/4114/Oxandrolone_excretion_effect_of_caffeine_dosing_.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjigcqU2t6JAxUx9rsIHf1cEAgQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2I0Y0twwdAkTL8ZE49gE7g

That is the source for that info. If it holds value in real applications

 

[Type-IIx]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.adop.pt/media/4114/Oxandrolone_excretion_effect_of_caffeine_dosing_.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjigcqU2t6JAxUx9rsIHf1cEAgQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2I0Y0twwdAkTL8ZE49gE7g

That is the source for that info. If it holds value in real applications

Thanks, I’ll review it

 

[OldGHGuy]

Good questions today!

Since muscle phosphocreatine (PCr) stores are theoretically repleted just by 5 g creatine monohydrate ingested daily for 28 days, it's unlikely that that can be super-compensated [unlike muscle glycogen stores]. Muscle PCr stores basically max out in humans around 1 kg, but often much less, in untrained adults.

I can give you more context here. Let's talk about muscle PCr stores in more detail.

An absolutely yoked, Olympia -winning or contender 130 kg superheavyweight at ~ 6% body fat might carry up to 100 kg (220 lb) of actual skeletal muscle. PCr concentrations in wet muscle is approximately 120 - 150 mol/kg. Wet muscle (given high water content) is approximately 75% of the muscle weight or 75 kg. PCr concentrations are 120 - 150 mmol/kg of wet muscle weight. Since 1 mmol PCr has a molecular weight of ~ 133 g/mol, we can calculate:

100 kg * 75% * 150 mmol/kg * 0.133 kg/mol = 1,496.25 g as an absolute theoretical maximal phosphocreatine storage in man. Although, ~ 500 g in a normal human is more typical.

The point of this exercise is to illustrate the point that these aren't massive stores. It's quite likely in my estimation that either 20 - 30 mg weekly oxandrolone or 5 g of creatine monohydrate daily are sufficient to maximally replete total creatine stores. I don't think synergy is necessary, since either one will likely totally replete PCr.

I don't do any of that. Which research shows a small amount of coffee to increase oxandrolone potency?

Sure does for that use case! I find the acute effects on strength from Var to be better than any other drug.

We're simply not worthy. Thanks for the excellent responses.

I see someone else posted the coffee/caffeine study...thank you too!

 

[Millard]

That is the source for that info. If it holds value in real applications

It seems anti-doping researchers believe caffeine is an effective way for athletes to clear oxandrolone from their system via higher excretion rates.

Salema, B., Ruivo, J., de la Torre, X., Sekera, M., & Horta, L. (2009). Oxandrolone excretion: Effect of caffeine dosing. Recent Advances In Doping Analysis, 17, 249–252. https://www.dshs-koeln.de/fileadmin.../Proceedings/Proceedings_17/17_pp_249-252.pdf

 

[readalot]

It seems anti-doping researchers believe caffeine is an effective way for athletes to clear oxandrolone from their system via higher excretion rates.

Salema, B., Ruivo, J., de la Torre, X., Sekera, M., & Horta, L. (2009). Oxandrolone excretion: Effect of caffeine dosing. Recent Advances In Doping Analysis, 17, 249–252. https://www.dshs-koeln.de/fileadmin.../Proceedings/Proceedings_17/17_pp_249-252.pdf

If only clearance/excretion were affected, the AUCs would be similar. They aren't.

The authors chalk this up to caffeine enhancing the bioavailability of oxandrolone. Which is strange since it is already so high (without caffeine).

Would be nice to repeat the experiments with serum levels. Since AUC is proportional to dose, I doubt the +/- treatments would show any significant difference with high bioavailability drug.


See here and reference therein:

All About Oxandrolone

Those wishing to experiment with Oxandrolone can try 10mg (with caffeine which apparently helps absorption) no more than twice a week taken directly before the two hardest workouts of the week. This should give noticeable results over a period of several months with little to no side effects...

www.excelmale.com

Thanks for linking paper and methodical reference.

 

[Type-IIx]

2) I have always split Var daily dosages 1/2 AM,1/2 PM AND taken each with a small amount of coffee which research has shown to increase effects. Is there a recommended protocol based on your research?

I have read this study before, having been linked to it from someone here some time ago! I still hold a skeptical view about the following passage:

---

We postulate that caffeine increases the bioavailability of oxandrolone, probably by increasing gut emptying. Practically this means that similar concentrations/effects may be achieved using lower dosages.

Caffeine is reported to accelerate absorption of some drugs (e.g. paracetamol). [3]. To determine if there is an additional metabolic effect, alternative routes of administration with/without caffeine dosing should be tested and both blood and urine collected. Other anabolic steroids should also be investigated.

---

The reason that I am skeptical is this: the experiments as designed focused purely on excretion without any look at blood concentrations, not to mind gut emptying.

I think it's at least equally likely that caffeine decreases potency and bioavailability by increasing excretion! That's the more straightforward postulate or assumption.

 

[Nunya]

Sure does for that use case! I find the acute effects on strength from Var to be better than any other drug.

So, if one is using var as a PWO, is it cycled on/off in the same way, or could one use it PWO long term?

 

[Type-IIx]

So, if one is using var as a PWO, is it cycled on/off in the same way, or could one use it PWO long term?

Sorry, cycled on/off in the same way as what?

There's actually no published research data aimed at acute strength effects of any AAS! All that we have is empirical self-report data.

I've always limited oxandrolone to 6 - 12 weeks because of hepatotoxicity and the diminished nitrogen retention after only 3 weeks. So, in practice, I cannot say whether this observed acute performance effect diminishes at any point.

Note, too, that some individuals aren't as attuned to their strength changes [especially true for bodybuilders that don't have any athletic training or natural training experience] and don't notice a significant acute pre workout strength boost.

I also just want to add that low/moderate doses of oxandrolone can be used safely in terms of years, but I prefer a "get in and get out" strategy - cyclical, basically. But some female bodybuilders, as well as burn injury patients, use oxandrolone at lower doses in terms of years [with careful monitoring of hepatotoxicity & after dispensing with regard for fertility].

 

[Nunya]

Thanks. I meant cycled on/off as in “I’m going to take X mg/day for 6 weeks and then stop for Z weeks before repeating” instead of “I’m going to take X mg PWO forever” - so your response addresses that idea! Great article.

 

[readalot]

cycled on/off in the same way, or could one use it PWO long term?

Cycled? Sure, seems a much better tradeoff than long term which would be continuous hell on your lipids.

Sorry for email firewall. NMR data included if interested.

Oxandrolone Troche Experience: Potential Atherosclerosis Marker WMD

I’d be interested in hearing others experience using oxandrolone troches instead of oral delivery (capsules) to bypass first-pass metabolism and reduce liver toxicity and lower minimum effective dose . Since oxandrolone has excellent oral bioavailability (97-98%) and is actually metabolized...

t-nation.com

Oxandrolone not a mild drug at '"modest" doses unless you can confirm it on yourself.

 

[OldGHGuy]

Interesting systematic reciew and meta-analysis from 2020, especially with respect to the liver:

Oxandrolone in the Treatment of Burn Injuries: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis - PubMed

Severe burns induce a profound hypermetabolic response, leading to a prolonged state of catabolism associated with organ dysfunction and delay of wound healing. Oxandrolone, a synthetic testosterone analog, may alleviate the hypermetabolic catabolic state thereby decreasing associated morbidity...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

(I'm not suggesting it has no liver ramifications as we all know it does).

 

[readalot]

Interesting systematic reciew and meta-analysis from 2020, especially with respect to the liver:

Oxandrolone in the Treatment of Burn Injuries: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis - PubMed

Severe burns induce a profound hypermetabolic response, leading to a prolonged state of catabolism associated with organ dysfunction and delay of wound healing. Oxandrolone, a synthetic testosterone analog, may alleviate the hypermetabolic catabolic state thereby decreasing associated morbidity...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

(I'm not suggesting it has no liver ramifications as we all know it does).

I see typical elevations to ALT/AST. Thanks for sharing.