1st post, 1st cycle: some concerns

[morningstar]

34 and running my first cycle--about two and a half weeks in. My starting total testosterone was 410 ng/dl, free test 23.1 pg/ml, and estradiol (sensitive) 31 pg/ml. Have kept calories and protein roughly the same as before I started my cycle (3,200-3,500 calories and protein at around180-190g most days). My starting weight was 174 lbs. at an estimated 14% bf (actually could see a couple of veins in my lower abs at this point, w/some fat in the typical male problem areas but fairly lean in most places). Now, on with my concerns...

Been on 500mg test enanth a week (using a ugl as my source, no idea whether under/overdosed tbh). Currently sitting at 182 lbs., a puffy bloated, uncomfortable-in-my-own-skin 182 lbs. Had labs done via Labcorp at 2 wks in (total test, free test and estradiol only) and my results came back as follows:
Total 1503 ng/dl (ref range 348-1197)
Free 52 pg/ml (ref range 8.7-25.1)
Estradiol 43 pg/ml (ref range 3-70)

So my question is, with an estradiol level only a bit past mid-range--and all other factors having been kept constant--should I be experiencing an expanding waistline/general bloat this extreme? I MIGHT be starting to see increased lat and trap size, but my belly, low-back and love handle region is definitely swelling (fiance is noticing it too) to the point of hanging over my shorts, and all but one pair of my pants fit me comfortably (chest looks a bit puffier too, I might add). Are there other factors that could contribute to bloat, or maybe I'm just plain getting fucking fat somehow? P.S. haven't checked bodyfat % so I'm not sure how that has changed.

Any comments, questions, advice are appreciated.

 

[morningstar]

Also, forgot to mention that I'll be going for lab tests again soon to follow up. I also have aromasin on hand in the event that I need it. Will post details of my background with regard to training history and current training to give a better picture of things.

 

[Dr JIM]

Actually if you look at the pre-cycle TT and E-2 levels they approximate the normal 10:1 ratio (7.5%)

However your cycling with a TT level of 1500ng/DL
and an E-2 of 43 pg/ML a TT:E-2 ratio of 2.8%

Nonetheless IMO your TT and E-2 levels are fine. That being said there is still 25% more E-2 on a molar basis and if symptoms are suggestive of E-2 excess, an AI (Adex 0.5 QD or QOD) seems reasonable.

Jim

 

[morningstar]

Thanks Doc! I kind of suspected that, while things looked good on paper, that given my real-world I might need to try an AI. I have aromasin on hand, and from all that I've gathered, 12.5 mg every day seems to be the standard dose for this sort of thing?

Thanks again, and looking forward to participating with and learning from this board!

 

[BastardSauce]

I'd probably start with 12.5mg aromasin every 2 days, and go to every day if you feel you need to after that

 

[morningstar]

I'd probably start with 12.5mg aromasin every 2 days, and go to every day if you feel you need to after that

Thanks.

 

[raysugar1234]

34 and running my first cycle--about two and a half weeks in. My starting total testosterone was 410 ng/dl, free test 23.1 pg/ml, and estradiol (sensitive) 31 pg/ml. Have kept calories and protein roughly the same as before I started my cycle (3,200-3,500 calories and protein at around180-190g most days). My starting weight was 174 lbs. at an estimated 14% bf (actually could see a couple of veins in my lower abs at this point, w/some fat in the typical male problem areas but fairly lean in most places). Now, on with my concerns...

Been on 500mg test enanth a week (using a ugl as my source, no idea whether under/overdosed tbh). Currently sitting at 182 lbs., a puffy bloated, uncomfortable-in-my-own-skin 182 lbs. Had labs done via Labcorp at 2 wks in (total test, free test and estradiol only) and my results came back as follows:
Total 1503 ng/dl (ref range 348-1197)
Free 52 pg/ml (ref range 8.7-25.1)
Estradiol 43 pg/ml (ref range 3-70)

So my question is, with an estradiol level only a bit past mid-range--and all other factors having been kept constant--should I be experiencing an expanding waistline/general bloat this extreme? I MIGHT be starting to see increased lat and trap size, but my belly, low-back and love handle region is definitely swelling (fiance is noticing it too) to the point of hanging over my shorts, and all but one pair of my pants fit me comfortably (chest looks a bit puffier too, I might add). Are there other factors that could contribute to bloat, or maybe I'm just plain getting fucking fat somehow? P.S. haven't checked bodyfat % so I'm not sure how that has changed.

Any comments, questions, advice are appreciated.

We are pretty much on the same page, my Total T came in at 452.

 

[morningstar]

We are pretty much on the same page, my Total T came in at 452.

Get this, around 2 years ago, my total t came back at 223 ng/dl. The highest it's ever gotten since that time, the point at which it's stayed for the most part, is the number I posted previously. 223! And for a guy in his early 30's, that didn't seem acceptable. So after finishing this cycle of 500mg weekly I'll be cruising on 250mg, maybe less depending on ongoing bloodwork. We'll see.

 

[morningstar]

My wife and I are going to have kids in a few years, so obviously I'll be coming off during that time, but otherwise, I'll keep on blasting and cruising.

 

[Pericles]

Run, sparingly, an AI, and also some Nolva. I do one nolva every other day, 10 mgs, and a small amount of Adex 2-3 times a week, as needed.

 

[Dr JIM]

Unless you have symptoms AND signs of gynecomastia SERMs and Novala in particular are unnecessary and may WORSEN bloat! That's because Novala has partial agonist (increases E-2 effects) at the periphery yet is almost exclusively antagonistic (decreases E-2 effects) within breast cells.

Ergo IF the only problem your confronting is bloat AIs are optimal therapy and the dose is adjusted according.

Although I prefer Adex over all the other AIs for a variety of reasons if what you have on hand is Aromasin start it at 25mg QD for one week and decrease the dose to 12.5 mg QD thereafter.

However this one size fits all approach to AAS side effect therapy is less than clinically or physiologically based. .

The dosage must be adjusted according to signs (such as AM weight gain) symptoms (a "puffy Cushing like" appearance") AND the combined quantity of AROMATIZABLE AAS an individual is consuming.

So if your cycle includes any of the following; D-Bol, TT,
A-Drol, Bolo, Halo, and perhaps Deca anticipate higher doses of any AI, AND as you increase the dose of these anabolics, it's quite likely higher AI doses will also be required, IME.

Oh and once again Aromasin offers no clinical benefit over the other less expensive AIs available on the market today.

Good luck
Jim

 

[Kane.d3]

Don't sweat the gut bloat bro. Totally normal. Big ctiticism of bodybuilders over the years.

 

[morningstar]

Unless you have symptoms AND signs of gynecomastia SERMs and Novala in particular are unnecessary and may WORSEN bloat!

...Oh and once again Aromasin offers no clinical benefit over the other less expensive AIs available on the market today.

Both points very interesting!

The dosage must be adjusted according to signs (such as AM weight gain) symptoms (a "puffy Cushing like" appearance") AND the combined quantity of AROMATIZABLE AAS an individual is consuming.

Since I'd already scheduled labs (had them done yesterday), I started aromasin at just 12.5 qd, and will probably stay there until I get my estradiol numbers back Monday. I will adjust up or down depending on the results. I'll of course post the result here. HOWEVER, I've already noticed a major difference in bloat and puffiness and so has my fiance. Buuuuuut, I'm feeling achier than normal, which could have to do with training and may not be related to the aromasin at all. I suppose labs will be helpful with regard to analyzing this issue as well. Dr. Jim, I'm guessing that side effects of AI's are dose dependent like with most compounds? I'm I off?

 

[morningstar]

Don't sweat the gut bloat bro. Totally normal. Big ctiticism of bodybuilders over the years.

I'm guessing some day in the near future gut bloat won't be an issue--i.e. when I'm so broad through the chest, back and shoulders no one (me included) would even notice a gut down there

 

[Dr JIM]

There are some AI dependent exceptions such as their effect on lipids but generally speaking the adverse effects increase as the dose increases.

Indeed this is true with essentially ALL medications!

 

[morningstar]

There are some AI dependent exceptions such as their effect on lipids but generally speaking the adverse effects increase as the dose increases.

Indeed this is true with essentially ALL medications!

Those were my thoughts. Thanks.