5x5 on cycle?

[someanddone]

I've got my gear for my first cycle, just a simple sust-only 12 week 500mgs per week cycle, and I need advice on when to start.

I just started the 5x5 strength training program as recommended by animalmass about two weeks ago and I like the results, but I feel like it is way too low in volume and frequency to make full use of a cycle.

Ideally I'd like to continue the 5x5 for another month and a half and then start my cycle when I switch back to a more traditional bodybuilding routine of 5-6 days per week and 10-12 reps per set.

The problem here lies with the fact that I will be moving to Germany in December and that will be right at the end of my cycle if I wait a month and a half. Don't want to interrupt the end of my cycle with lackluster sessions and sleepless nights, along with the stress of the move.

So this brings me back to starting my cycle right away. Could I still incorporate the 5x5 principle into a higher volume/frequency routine? i.e. 7x7 alternating push/pull days and take every 4th day off?
Split would look like this:
Monday - Chest/shoulders/tris
Tuesday - Legs/forearms
Wednesday - Back/bis
Thursday - Off
Repeat indefinitely. 7x7 with chest/shoulders/legs/ and back. 3x10-12 with tris/bis. High reps with forearms. Abs EOD.

I know there could be a million different variations so give me your tried-and-true. I have a really solid base to work with. Been lifting for 5 years religiously. 6'2" 225 16% bf.

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[BigtomW]

What's going to be your main goal? Size or strength?

 

[someanddone]

I'd say my goal is 65% size gains and 35% strength gains. I want to get stronger so that when I come off I can keep more of the gains but not so strong that I hurt myself because my tendons and ligaments can't keep up. Obviously size is nice but if its all for show then its all for shit.

 

[Get Some]

I'd say my goal is 65% size gains and 35% strength gains. I want to get stronger so that when I come off I can keep more of the gains but not so strong that I hurt myself because my tendons and ligaments can't keep up. Obviously size is nice but if its all for show then its all for shit.

The basic principle of the matter is...if you don't get stronger, you won't get bigger.

I can tell you from experience that the 5X5 program put more mass on me than any other program I have ever done, especially in the legs. I was thinking the same thing as you at first. It seemed like I just wasn't getting the proper workout while on cycle. But, I continued and added some isolation workouts (only 3 sets per session) and began to love it. I got freakishly strong very fast.

I think the 5X5 works better when cycled like AAS. It puts a lot of stress on the joints and tendons because you are lifting such heavy weight. So, I usually go 5X5 for 3 or 4 weeks and then one week of 3x3 followed by at least 2 weeks off (meaning I return to my normal 3 day split of 6-8 reps per set with less weight). I still lift as much weight as possible on my normal split, but let's face it, you can lift heavier when doing 5 sets of 5 rather than 3 sets of 8 (at least I can).

At first I found myself failing on the last set before 5 reps. Then, once I learned how to pace myself I was blasting 5 reps no problem and climbing weight quickly. Give it a shot and I think you'll be happy.

 

[MAYO]

I just started a hybrid of the 5x5 program. Many of the 5x5 programs train each body part 3 times a week. I prefer to train mine once, but the 5x5 is only the first excercise.

Here is a typical chest day:

-Bench
warm up as needed
5x5(max possible weight, FULL range of motion)

-Decline cable flys -or- machine flys
3 sets total
2 sets attempting 15 reps of moderate weight, good form
Final set with a 40% drop incorporated (ie 100 for 6 reps -drop- 60 for 8 reps)

-Incline cable fly -or- incline dumbell fly
3 sets total
2 sets attempting 15 reps of moderate weight, good form
Final set with a 40% drop incorporated (ie 100 for 6 reps -drop- 60 for 8 reps)

DB Incline bench
3 sets
115lb db; FULL range of motion, pause at bottom of each rep, as many as possible (4-5)
95lb db; FULL range of motion, pause at bottom of each rep, as many as possible (8-10)
75lb db; FULL range of motion, pause at bottom of each rep, as many as possible (12+)

All of my body parts have similar routines. This is my second week and it is brutal.

 

[someanddone]

How's this look mayo? Enough rest? I eat clean and often and I will try for 6000 calories a day while on cycle. Plus whey protein 2-3 times per day, casein at night, BCAAs and glutamine throughout the day.

Monday - Flat Bench 5x5 (heavy as possible, with chains)
Incline Cable Fly 3x8-12 (squeeze and pause at top)
Decline Cable Fly 3x8-12
Slight Incline Dumbbell Press 3x8-12 (not too deep)
EZ Curl Bar Pullover 2x12-15 (stretch out the pecs)

Tuesday - Deadlift 5x5 (heavy as possible)
JS Rows 3x8-12 (strict form)
Chins 3x8-12 (alternating grip)
Seated Rows 3x8-12 (neutral grip Hammer strength)
Cable Straight-arm pulldowns 3x8-12 (with rope to extend past hips for full squeeze)

Wednesday - Olympic Squats 5x5 (henceforth, if I say 5x5, it means as heavy as possible)
Hamstring Curls 3x8-12
Leg Extensions 3x8-12
Calf Raises 3x20-25
Dumbbell Lunges 2 sets to failure

Thursday - Standing Overhead Press 5x5
Lateral Raises 3x8-12
Pec-dec Reverse Fly 3x8-12
Cable Upright Rows 3x8-12
Seated Hammer Strength Overhead Press 3x8-12 (has a different range of motion than standing overhead press)

Friday - Weighted Dips 3x8-12
Skull-crushers 3x8-12
Rope Pulldowns 3x8-12
Close-grip EZ curl bar bench press 3x8-12
Triceps Dumbbell Kickbacks 3x8-12

Saturday - Barbell Curls 3x8-12
Hammer Curls 3x8-12
Seated Slightly Leaned-back Dumbbell Curls 3x8-12
Cable Curl Dropsets 3 sets alternating grips

Sunday - Rest, eat, rest, eat, repeat.

Abs and forearms at home EOD.

 

[MAYO]

Looks like we got a beast in the making I would ditch standing OH press. Too much core involvement not enough delt isolation IMO. I believe you will be able to push much more weight for your 5x5 with seated press.

 

[punkguitarist]

How's this look mayo? Enough rest? I eat clean and often and I will try for 6000 calories a day while on cycle. Plus whey protein 2-3 times per day, casein at night, BCAAs and glutamine throughout the day.

Monday - Flat Bench 5x5 (heavy as possible, with chains)
Incline Cable Fly 3x8-12 (squeeze and pause at top)
Decline Cable Fly 3x8-12
Slight Incline Dumbbell Press 3x8-12 (not too deep)
EZ Curl Bar Pullover 2x12-15 (stretch out the pecs)

Tuesday - Deadlift 5x5 (heavy as possible)
JS Rows 3x8-12 (strict form)
Chins 3x8-12 (alternating grip)
Seated Rows 3x8-12 (neutral grip Hammer strength)
Cable Straight-arm pulldowns 3x8-12 (with rope to extend past hips for full squeeze)

Wednesday - Olympic Squats 5x5 (henceforth, if I say 5x5, it means as heavy as possible)
Hamstring Curls 3x8-12
Leg Extensions 3x8-12
Calf Raises 3x20-25
Dumbbell Lunges 2 sets to failure

Thursday - Standing Overhead Press 5x5
Lateral Raises 3x8-12
Pec-dec Reverse Fly 3x8-12
Cable Upright Rows 3x8-12
Seated Hammer Strength Overhead Press 3x8-12 (has a different range of motion than standing overhead press)

Friday - Weighted Dips 3x8-12
Skull-crushers 3x8-12
Rope Pulldowns 3x8-12
Close-grip EZ curl bar bench press 3x8-12
Triceps Dumbbell Kickbacks 3x8-12

Saturday - Barbell Curls 3x8-12
Hammer Curls 3x8-12
Seated Slightly Leaned-back Dumbbell Curls 3x8-12
Cable Curl Dropsets 3 sets alternating grips

Sunday - Rest, eat, rest, eat, repeat.

Abs and forearms at home EOD.

I wouldn't do squats the day after deadlifts. My lower back would be fucked.

 

[MAYO]

I wouldn't do squats the day after deadlifts. My lower back would be fucked.

Ya might want to flip-flop those two.

 

[bigrobbie]

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Bill_Starr_5x5

 

[someanddone]

Cool picture bigrobbie, but not sure why you posted a run-down of the different 5x5 routines by bill starr.
I have been doing a strict three-day-per-week 5x5 program for about a month now and I love it, but my question was more about how to incorporate it into a bodybuilder's routine to use on-cycle, as I believe to use the 5x5 as originally intended while on-cycle would be a waste of potential held within the cycle.
I'm not a competitive pl nor bb so crazy strength or perfectly sculpted muscles are not goals in and of themselves. A great combination of the two, now thats functional and purty. Thats why I wanted to incorporate the 5x5 with a high volume isolation-intense workout,
Now how does that workout look to you, knowing the goals?

 

[MAYO]

Cool picture bigrobbie, but not sure why you posted a run-down of the different 5x5 routines by bill starr.
I have been doing a strict three-day-per-week 5x5 program for about a month now and I love it, but my question was more about how to incorporate it into a bodybuilder's routine to use on-cycle, as I believe to use the 5x5 as originally intended while on-cycle would be a waste of potential held within the cycle.
I'm not a competitive pl nor bb so crazy strength or perfectly sculpted muscles are not goals in and of themselves. A great combination of the two, now thats functional and purty. Thats why I wanted to incorporate the 5x5 with a high volume isolation-intense workout,
Now how does that workout look to you, knowing the goals?

I would do squats tues and deads weds like Punk said and lose the standing OH press for seated. Doing deads before squats will cripple your lift IMO and I feel like my shoulders are much more isolated when seated. I would also wear Ray-Bans and a fanny pak when you lift and yell really loud on each rep. [)] Looks good bro.

 

[someanddone]

Lmao. I do want to look purty so the sunglasses and fanny pak should be just the ticket. Maybe even a walkman and those daisy-duke neoprene bike shorts.

As far as swapping the leg and back days, I could do that, or I could swap leg and chest days.

i.e. monday- legs tuesday - chest wednesday- back thurs.- shoulders fri- tris sat.- bis.

Either way I'm gonna change it up.

Thanks a lot for the input.
Check out my new thread to, I'll be posting it later tonight.

 

[johnsmith402]

None of you are doing anything even remotely similar to a real "5x5" program. Since the 5x5 was really born on this very forum, and traveled from here slowly to the rest of the internet, it is sad to see it so bastardized even in its birthplace.

Remember, proud members of the Meso forum. The 5x5 was HERE, and on this site, here before it had a wiki page, or the books Starting Strength or Practical Programming were ever written. Here before anyone had ever heard of Glenn Pendlay or Bill Starr.

Go to the stickies, read the posts from a dude that went by johnsmith182. Yeah, he was measured in kilos then, now, I hear he is measured in pounds now.

Above all, be PROUD of what this very forum spread to the whole world, proud that the revolution in training started HERE. Be true to your roots.

JS

 

[MAYO]

None of you are doing anything even remotely similar to a real "5x5" program. Since the 5x5 was really born on this very forum, and traveled from here slowly to the rest of the internet, it is sad to see it so bastardized even in its birthplace.

Remember, proud members of the Meso forum. The 5x5 was HERE, and on this site, here before it had a wiki page, or the books Starting Strength or Practical Programming were ever written. Here before anyone had ever heard of Glenn Pendlay or Bill Starr.

Go to the stickies, read the posts from a dude that went by johnsmith182. Yeah, he was measured in kilos then, now, I hear he is measured in pounds now.

Above all, be PROUD of what this very forum spread to the whole world, proud that the revolution in training started HERE. Be true to your roots.

JS

MESO is rooted in innovation. I don't think anyone here claimed to be on the original 5X5. Personally, I took a powerlifting program, the 5X5 and altered it to fit my needs as a BB. 5X5 is not functional for aesthetics, but its principle is good for strength. People spinning off of programs in an attempt to improve is what MESO is about, sir.

 

[Jeton]

very interesting thread. personally i found simple basic 5x5 training to be the easiest way for someone with COPD like myself to grow...my cardio is decent but when doing standard size training i would simply gas out prematurely.

5x5, compound movements, hi-dose TRT n short cycles at higher dosage...that's how i went from 150 to 200lbs...but i gotta research these variations more.

 

[someanddone]

Dear JS,

If an artist were to paint a picture of the ideal bodybuilder, and he used photos of Ronnie Coleman's back, Arnold's chest, Dexter's abs, etc., to sketch the perfect bodybuilder, did he bastardize the bodies of those he used as pristine examples?

You should be proud that I have incorporated a small portion of the 5x5 into my bodybuilding routine.

For 6 weeks I used the 5x5 and saw great strength increases and put on about 6 pounds of solid muscle. I never felt overtrained and needed only one week of 3x3 unloading when I felt like I was getting so strong that my tendons and ligaments needed a little rest. Not to say that it was easy going, I absolutely felt like I was working my ass off, but it was only three days per week. All this being said, I was training with no juice, and when I started my recent cycle, it seemed logical to me that the 5x5 was not enough volume, and would not produce the sculpted muscles that I want.

I will go back to the 5x5 everytime I need to put on more raw size and strength, and will once again strictly follow the guidelines on the 5x5 sticky thread. But for right now, I am merely adapting my bodybuilding routine to include some strength and mass building via the 5x5.

Hopefully you understand that the 5x5 is not the only effective weight-training program ever developed, and that eventually people will have to tweak anything that works, due to the law of diminishing returns, a.k.a., adaptation.

Thanks for your contributions to the world I love, and please continue to guide the misguided, uneducated, and ignorant newbies.

Respect

 

[Reinheart]

5x5 would work wonders on cycle. I am currently doing a german volume workout (also called 10x10) and it's amazing how much growth i am experiencing.

 

[someanddone]

Reinhart,
I know its time consuming, but can you break down the 10x10 a little bit or provide a link to find out more about it?
The 5x5 just didn't hit every head of every muscle the way a bodybuildiing routine does. It absolutely works the large muscle groups and vicariously the smaller ones, but it just doesn't seem like it sculpts and carves like a higher volume, higher rep, higher intensity (less rest), workout would.
I already have quite a bit of natural mass, so putting on thick slabs of muscle is always nice but not at the sacrifice of shape.
Let me know if you have tweaked any exercises to better hit all muscle groups and what your results have been as far as the type of size you have put on.
Also, the 10x10 already sounds better for an on-cycle bb routine because of the reps and volume.
Very interested to learn more.