Advice on bloods

[thejumpingsheep]

Good Afternoon Meso,

Ok so I got a bunch of stuff together and started taking some test-c. 1st time in my life doing this. So some insight from experienced folks would be appreciated.

Status:

5 weeks of Test-C @ 250mg/wk. Pinning once a week.
2iu HGH daily

Honestly dont feel much different under these doses in terms of energy and strength. Still feel sleepy early afternoon (I wake up around 6am) and not particularly in the mood to work out. But I force myself. I do 3-4 days a week. 1 to 2 hours each depending on how tired I am. I always start with cardio (jog or stairs or some mild basketball). Then I push & pull on body parts once a week. I think I want to increase dosage of Test-C to 375 and then 500 but want to sort some things out first.

Pulled lots of bloods after week 5. Everything is normal except some lipid stuff and obviously, hormones. Areas of concern are:

Low HDL - 36mg/dL (42mg/dL prior)
High LDL - 147mg/dL (130mg/dL prior)
E2 - 49.1pg/mL (undetectable <24pg/mL prior)

Obviously, test is >1500 (398ng/dL prior), free test = 44.2pg/mL (71pg/mL prior), IGF-1 = 404. I do BP every other day and it hovers systolic 109 -121 and diastolic 69-80.

1) Biggest concern are those cholestrol levels and maybe diastolic BP. Lipids werent exactly wonderful before but totals were normal and doctor was not concerned so I put them aside. Now total is slightly high and both got worse. I know AAS will do this but should I be concerned? Is there a good way to get HDL up and LDL down? I have added more fiber to diet prior to last bloods but obviously that wasnt enough.

2) Base on what I have read in terms of estrogen sides, I havent felt any so far. But I do want to start increasing Test-C slowly to see if I cant get a little more oomph in my step... Should I start taking Arimidex? Im thinking 0.5mg/wk to start and then 1mg if all is well? Or am I being overly cautious?

3) Last, im getting a bit of confused about HCG. I read the article stickied about it. First of all, should I bother at all at my age(47)? If I do bother, at what point is it needed? I assume at Test-C 250mg/wk its not a major issue but if I start increasing towards 500mg, what dosage should I be looking at? 500iu EOD? Should I also increase Arimidex with it?

Thank you for your time.

 

[thejumpingsheep]

Update:

Talked to doctor and he said that at this point, meds for lipids would be optional. So I went ahead and asked him to get me some. He prescribed 10mg Rosuvastatin. So I guess thats a first step to try to get those corrected a bit.

Regarding AI, from what I understood, it wouldnt kill me to take a low dosage of Arimidex so I did 0.5mg and will up it to 1mg as I raise Test-C dosage. I will move up to 375mg for a couple of weeks to see if it makes me feel any different. If not, then ill go to 500mg and go up to 1mg Arimidex. Maybe do that for 8 weeks, do some labs, then start to taper off the last 4 weeks for a total of 16 weeks on Test. Most of the posts around here seem to indicate that this is enough for an old fart like me.

Still not sure about HCG. I dont plan on doing another "cycle" if we can call it that, soon and I prefer not to lose my natural test production, so right now im leaning towards using it if I up Test-C to 500mg. At that point, I think ill try 1500iu a week. Will 1mg Arimidex be enough? I guess ill have to pull another E2 to check...

Does all this seem sound? Any help from experienced folks would be most welcome. Thanks.

 

[Eddie.]

Low HDL - 36mg/dL (42mg/dL prior)
High LDL - 147mg/dL (130mg/dL prior)
E2 - 49.1pg/mL (undetectable <24pg/mL prior)

Obviously, test is >1500 (398ng/dL prior), free test = 44.2pg/mL (71pg/mL prior), IGF-1 = 404. I do BP every other day and it hovers systolic 109 -121 and diastolic 69-80.

Is this accurate or some sort of mistake? If it's not a misspelling then something's off. Have you checked SHBG?

I would not worry much about BP yet, you're in a good range. If it starts creeping up then you might need to take some action but you're not in that place yet.

Lipids gets skewed first when exogenous test comes into play, raising the HDL will be way harder than reducing LDL so don't go crazy if it doesn't come up while you're on cycle. Some guys have single digit HDL for months upon months (i'm not telling it's a good thing though).

First line of defence is cleaning up your diet, reducing fat intake (you don't need much when you're on exogenous test) and keep the fat sources from healthy oils like olive oil, coconut, macademia etc, fatty fish like salmon and sardines, some flax seed and 1-2 whole eggs. 50-70gr of total fats per day is enough if it comes from good sources.

Then supplement with omega 3's, 2-4gr total per day. Going to medications first line of defence is 10mg ezetimibe per day. If that's not sufficient to keep lipids in a favourable range THEN you can add the rosuvostatin on top of ezetimibe but not 10mg per day, i think it's quite big of a dose to start. I'd start with 5mg every 3 days and then recheck after couple weeks. Some guys respond very well to low dose rosuvostatin, in my opinion there's no reason to go at 10mg a day with a LDL of hypothetically speaking 120.

Regarding HCG i can't tell you what to do since in my case it did nothing to preserve my balls, but in most cases it helps. I'll just say if you decide to add 1500IU per week, manage your estrogen because you'll see a significant increase. 1mg arimidex with 500mg test and 1500IU HCG i guess it won't be enough..so with every change you do i suggest to check e2 after couple weeks.

 

[thejumpingsheep]

Is this accurate or some sort of mistake? If it's not a misspelling then something's off. Have you checked SHBG?

I would not worry much about BP yet, you're in a good range. If it starts creeping up then you might need to take some action but you're not in that place yet.

Lipids gets skewed first when exogenous test comes into play, raising the HDL will be way harder than reducing LDL so don't go crazy if it doesn't come up while you're on cycle. Some guys have single digit HDL for months upon months (i'm not telling it's a good thing though).

First line of defence is cleaning up your diet, reducing fat intake (you don't need much when you're on exogenous test) and keep the fat sources from healthy oils like olive oil, coconut, macademia etc, fatty fish like salmon and sardines, some flax seed and 1-2 whole eggs. 50-70gr of total fats per day is enough if it comes from good sources.

Then supplement with omega 3's, 2-4gr total per day. Going to medications first line of defence is 10mg ezetimibe per day. If that's not sufficient to keep lipids in a favourable range THEN you can add the rosuvostatin on top of ezetimibe but not 10mg per day, i think it's quite big of a dose to start. I'd start with 5mg every 3 days and then recheck after couple weeks. Some guys respond very well to low dose rosuvostatin, in my opinion there's no reason to go at 10mg a day with a LDL of hypothetically speaking 120.

Regarding HCG i can't tell you what to do since in my case it did nothing to preserve my balls, but in most cases it helps. I'll just say if you decide to add 1500IU per week, manage your estrogen because you'll see a significant increase. 1mg arimidex with 500mg test and 1500IU HCG i guess it won't be enough..so with every change you do i suggest to check e2 after couple weeks.

I truly appreciate the input.

Ill definitely look into the diet a bit more closely. That has really been the toughest part for me. My focus has been to increase protein because my normal ratio is around 0.5g/lb. Since I started working again and doing all this, I have pushed it to 0.75g/lb on average. In doing so I have also increased fat intake... I can definitely improve on this. I have no idea how you guys get up to 2x body weighting without hauling a toilet around everywhere you go...

The doc prescribed 10mg Rosuvostatin because he himself is on it though im not sure why that matters. Ill wait to get them for now. If they are compounded type then I should be able to simply split them in half. If they are capsules Ill just talk to the doc again to see what he says. Thanks for the heads up.

Yes those free test scores seem to be my mistake. The new one from Labcorp are "Free Testosterone(Direct) 44.2pg/mL" while the other is "Testosterone, Free Calculation 71pg/mL" from my doctors lab.

They used the same units so I just assumed they are the same but there is definitely a difference. The labcor one has a normal range of 6.8-21.5 while the doctors lab has a range of 47-244. So obviously they arent the same. The labcore one is elevated while the doctors is normal.

SHBC 34 pre-injections
SHBC (serum?) 23.6 post-injections

These appear to be normal range so should I be worried?

Is there a general rule of thumb regarding Arimidex and HCG? Like how much to offset the E2?

I saw a rule of thumb for Test, which I recall was 1mg Arimidex per 250mg Test so im sort of following that but easing into it since I have no sides from the E2@49 yet. Ive also read some folks get E2 up even higher and dont bother with PCT because they had no sides. Thoughts?

 

[Eddie.]

I appreciate the input. Ill definitely look into the diet a bit more closely. That has really been the toughest part for me. My focus has been to increase protein because my normal ratio is around 0.5g/lb. Since I started working again and doing all this, I have pushed it to 0.75g/lb on average. In doing so I have also increased fat intake... I can definitely improve on this.

This is low, remember without proper and sufficient food peds won't do anything. In extremely simple words, peds allow you to have a better nutrient partitioning and utilise more food before start getting fat. 2g/lb is extreme IMO. Something between 1 to 1,5 is golden. Just find protein sources you can tolerate, if you can't eat many eggs having a bottle of egg whites it will give you hard time obviously. My sources are fat free Greek yoghurt (up to 2lb somedays), eggs, chicken breast and whey and i'm eating around 300-310gr per day in total from all sources (eg from rice, oats etc). I guess direct protein is 260-270 which is close to 1,25g/lb.

Yes those free test scores seem to be my mistake. The new one from Labcorp are "Free Testosterone(Direct) 44.2pg/mL" while the other is "Testosterone, Free Calculation 71pg/mL" from my doctors lab.

They used the same units so I just assumed they are the same but there is definitely a difference. The labcor one has a normal range of 6.8-21.5 while the doctors lab has a range of 47-244. So obviously they arent the same. The labcore one is elevated while the doctors is normal.

SHBC 34 pre-injections
SHBC (serum?) 23.6 post-injections

These appear to be normal range so should I be worried?

Now it makes sense. Free test after you start exogenous test HAD to be out of range (like TT) and if it wasn't, sometimes if SHBG gets very high (which is unlikely when using peds) it can lower free test significantly. Your SHBG numbers are ok. If you raise the test it will go even lower but it's not something you need to worry about, unless it goes under 10.

Is there a general rule of thumb regarding Arimidex and HCG? Like how much to offset the E2?

I saw a rule of thumb for Test, which I recall was 1mg Arimidex per 250mg Test so im sort of following that but easing into it since I have no sides from the E2@49 yet. Ive also read some folks get E2 up even higher and dont bother with PCT because they had no sides. Thoughts?

A 49 estradiol is perfect IMO. No need to go above 60, it doesn't add anything more than extra side effects. And yeah, i've seen this rule of thumb too and i believe is ok. 1mg for every 250mg test would be ok. Now, 250mg test and 1500IU HCG you'd need probably 2mg, but we can sit 2 hours here and just estimate. Only bloodwork will show the results. Trust the bloodwork and don't go with "feels", there's a chance you have a e2 of 130 and not feel anything, it doesn't mean it's ok.

 

[thejumpingsheep]

The food is tough... I have all the stuff you mentioned but I find that doing all of that every day is a battle with burnout unless I add stuff I really like more meat. Problem with the tasty meats however is it comes with higher fat%. But ok, so from what I understood, as I shift my test-c up, I really need to get more protein. Ill figure something out... My next two weeks will be 375mg test-c so here we go...

As an aside... 2lbs of yogurt a day? Jesus man thats like what? 4 cups? Thats the entire medium size carton isnt it? Do you inject that shit?

 

[Eddie.]

The food is tough... I have all the stuff you mentioned but I find that doing all of that every day is a battle with burnout unless I add stuff I really like more meat. Problem with the tasty meats however is it comes with higher fat%. But ok, so from what I understood, as I shift my test-c up, I really need to get more protein. Ill figure something out... My next two weeks will be 375mg test-c so here we go...

I understand the frustration, i'm eating with low fats the last 2 years and before that i was eating the same things with more fatty meats and more olive oil to my salads, rice, potatoes etc. Fats make everything taste better and meats are just tastier and easy to chew them. Peds and high saturated fats are not going together though, you can easily wreck your lipids..

As an aside... 2lbs of yogurt a day? Jesus man thats like what? 4 cups? Thats the entire medium size carton isnt it? Do you inject that shit?

Actually a little more, 2,2lbs which means 1kg tub. It's 2 servings for me, i eat 500gr of yoghurt and 150gr cream of rice 1 hour before gym and i'm completely fine with it. The whole tub has 100gr of protein, 0 fat and 45gr carbs and it costs me 2,5 euros since i live in Greece. Can't beat that.

 

[thejumpingsheep]

New week start. So far, taking @Eddie. advice and got some extra yogurt into breakfast. 1100kcal 92g protein... not happy about the 51g fat but thats where I landed with eggs, some meat and some grain bread.

Got some chicken brining, not sure what to cook yet. Thinking old school BBQ tikka skewers... Ill post the pics in the "what are you eating thread" if I do that. Folks might like the recipe. I have some awesome oranges on the tree so im thinking an orange glaze. They will brown nicely.

Work then later it will be gym while eldest at basketball practice. Test-C 375mg to the virgin left quad. 500iu HCG. 1mg Arimidex (still cautiously easing into it). 2.4iu HGH before bed.

 

[thejumpingsheep]

Just an update. Got bloods last week after shifting to new doses. Also vastly improved diet. Im at 1g protein per lb fairly consistently. Was actually easier than I thought. Going from 0.5 to 0.75 was harder because I had to change a lot of habits but 0.75 to 1 was just a matter of quantity.

Im just going to plop the results on one line to make it easier to visualize. Values are weekly unless otherwise noted.

- 1st value is no gear at all
- 2nd value is with 250mg Test-C, 2.4iu HGH (daily)
- 3rd value is:
500mg Test-C
500iu HCG
1.5mg Arimidex
5mg Rosuvostatin (daily)
fish oil (daily)
2.4mg HGH (daily... though I skipped a few)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HDL - 42mg/dL : 36mg/dL : 32mg/dL
LDL - 130mg/dL : 147mg/dL : 109mg/dL
E2 - undetectable : 49.1pg/mL : 27.8pg/mL
SHBC - 34 : 23.6 : 15.4nmol/L
IGF1 - no baseline : 404ng/mL : 420ng/mL
Test - 398ng/dL : >1500 (capped) : 3198.3ng/dL
Prolactin - no baseline : not tested : 6.4ng/mL (range 3.9-22.7)

As before, no issues with CBC, metabolics or thyroid panel. All in range.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for how I feel... mixed bag. On one hand I am seeing good gains in the gym and shoulder pain is in control. My weight exploded from 210 to 230 as soon as I upped the protein. Muscles definitely starting to pop. More vein definition happening. But also gut got a little bigger though I can see some ab definition.

On the downside, I started noticing something with my joints. Shoulders and knees are a bit more stiff and less flexible. Almost like it was before I started gear. I am now wondering if my joint issues are tied to E2... E2, as you can see above, almost tanked from 1.5mg of Arimidex. Its in normal range, but its back to low side and I had these same joint problem before I started gear when my E2 was undetectably low.

Last, no notable change in energy levels. I got a CPAP and have been using it. Im getting about 1 hour extra sleep so i went from around 5 to 6 hours. Still getting up a lot it seems. The added weight has impacted me on runs and general cardio. But recovery had been good. I can run a mile, take a few shots at the hoop for like 5 minutes, and I feel like I can go again if not for joint issues...

Folks are noticing, especially upper body. Wife has been happy but honestly labido doesnt feel any different even with HCG and higher Test-C. I will admit sperm blast off like I was teen... I guess thats the HCG? Very interesting.

Some questions:

If anyone has a minute to help me out, I would appreciate it.

1 - I am thinking the joint problem are tied to low E2. Does this sound reasonable? Im thinking of tweeking things to get it back up to 40-50... the joints felt awesome at those levels. Any thoughts?

2 - Regarding lipids. Doctor originally perscribed 10mg Resovustatin. I had been taking only 5mg to test it out. Im thinking to go ahead and take 10mg as perscribed then doing bloods again in like 6 weeks. Sanity check?

3 - Still no change in energy. This is the most frustrating thing. No amount of caffine helps (not that I can tell). Tried more fruits in diet. Not sure what to do. Ideas? Thinking of making the next jump to 750mg Test-C. This will increase my E2 to see if it helps my joints. And maybe it will start to make feel more energetic? Dunno. With SHBC getting low, im not sure its a good idea.

 

[ThinBulk]

Having E2 too low will downgrade libido, make joints feel dry, lower general wellbeing, and negatively effect lipids. I try not to mess with mine, but it's common for people to let E2 go higher with high test. IMO your levels were good before, and you're having side effects from too much adex.

How is your blood sugar and a1c? The hgh and statin both negatively effect insulin resistance. They're also new for you. Your igf1 levels show that you respond well to the hgh.

500iu eod is a great level for hcg maintenance. Just enough to keep everything moving well.

You will probably see some positive change to energy and wellbeing if you reduce to AI. Being up 20 pounds this quickly, testosterone is obviously working well. It might just not make you feel much different. I doubt 500 to 750 would change that.

 

[thejumpingsheep]

Having E2 too low will downgrade libido, make joints feel dry, lower general wellbeing, and negatively effect lipids. I try not to mess with mine, but it's common for people to let E2 go higher with high test. IMO your levels were good before, and you're having side effects from too much adex.

How is your blood sugar and a1c? The hgh and statin both negatively effect insulin resistance. They're also new for you. Your igf1 levels show that you respond well to the hgh.

500iu eod is a great level for hcg maintenance. Just enough to keep everything moving well.

You will probably see some positive change to energy and wellbeing if you reduce to AI. Being up 20 pounds this quickly, testosterone is obviously working well. It might just not make you feel much different. I doubt 500 to 750 would change that.

Thanks for the tips.

Glucose is fine. Honestly wasnt worried about that.

My issue has always been lipids and general feeling of fatigue. Those issues date back before I started injecting anything. My E2 prior to starting injections was already very low in the "undetectable" range and this is where my focus is right now. Im going to try to up that back to 50 range to see if my joints and ligaments feel better. All in all, Im chalking it up to getting older.

HGH is just before bed. As I understand it, this should minimize impact on insulin cycle.

Havent really noticed much with the statins but the lipids were definitely impacted. LDL went down a lot but HDL has been stubborn. I moved up to 10mg/day this past week and so far I still dont notice any sides. Hoping the extra 5mg/day will bring them into even better range.

I was toying with either reducing AI or upping something else to increase E2. Though E2 might not be the culprit to the joint issues, it does seem suspicious and since I am still learning phase, I want to test the theory.

I am going to go ahead with increasing Test-C to 750mg/wk for about 6 weeks. I am at the tail end of the cycle anyway and so far I havent noticed negatives from 500mg. No hair loss (yet) despite having MPB, and the higher E2 made me feel better in terms of joints. Anyway this will be it for the cycle. Total of 18 weeks albeit the initial 6 were low dosage. I will assess the results at that point and I want to get my bloods back to normal.

I expect E2 to land at about 55-60 since I am not increasing AI, assuming its a linear relationship (which I am not sure). Going to do 250 EoD M-F, and split the AI to 0.5mg on injection days. The increase in statin should counteract the extra Test-C fairly well I hope. This will be a good test of that theory as well.

It seems to me, that based on my natty bloods, it would make a lot of sense to go on like 100mg/wk TRT. Not so much for extra testosterone, but to bring E2 up to like 30. But I will wait to see what this last leg of the cycle does.