Advice on dialing in primobolan: test ratio + Estrogen management

[Test_Subject]

What the fuck

I know right?

Just…run more test or lower the primo? Occam’s Razor and all.

 

[Hughinn]

Just started another cycle, really wanted to introduce primo, but unsure of how to dial the ratio in at this stage.

The plan was to gradually titrate my dosages upwards/manipulate the ratio of test to primo by feeling, at least until enough time had passed to get bloodwork done I'm only a couple weeks in, but this was my protocol thus far:

Week 1: 250 mg Test E/150 mg Primo E 250 HCG EOD
Felt very good, rapid change in work capacity just within a few days. Not placebo. I feel "on" very quickly. Started to develop insomnia later in the week? Nothing too bad. Just waking up a few times a night and not being able to go back to sleep for a few minutes.. However, energy has begun to lessen.. I've started feeling very lethargic/tired despite getting adequate nutrition/rest.

Week 2: 300 mg Test E/300 mg Primo E 250 HCG EOD
changed the ratio 1:1 thinking rising E2 may be the issue
Took 6.25 mg ASIN yesterday after pinning, the insomnia seems to have lessened, but is still persistent. I'm just worried I may be confusing low e2 sides with high because I've never used primo before, and without bloodwork I'm going in blind on this. Lol. The lethargy/tiredness still hasn't lessened significantly though.

Should I just drop the primo entirely go straight to my target dose of 500 mg TEST e/ a week, wait until bloods are saturated and then gradually introduce the primo into the mix?

Some experienced advice would be appreciated

That's not very much primobolan for a blast.
I'd personally up the primobolan to 500-700 mg weekly and keep the test at 250.

Primobolan doesn't aromatization very much so you probably won't need an AI.

Just my opinion.

 

[lilhawk]

Just stumbled on this. I am running ~200 mg test weekly pinning EOD and Primo 800 weekly pinning same schedule. I got my bloodwork to find out my Estrogen was 152. Test was at 1060.

I am adding an AI now but surprised to see such high estrogen with this cycle.

Maybe your primo isn’t primo.. Running it at 800 mg you’d think your estrogen would be low with that little test.

 

[BlindPetey]

Maybe your primo isn’t primo.. Running it at 800 mg you’d think your estrogen would be low with that little test.

It's tested.
My only other thought was false reading but not sure how often that happens. I did have sensitive nips like twice over past few weeks though.

 

[FlyGuy3232]

If Primo is having a significant lowering impact on E2, then it likely has Mast in it or is just Mast.

Most commonly faked Primo is a combo of Mast and Deca.

 

[Alphalfa]

If Primo is having a significant lowering impact on E2, then it likely has Mast in it or is just Mast.

Most commonly faked Primo is a combo of Mast and Deca.

Masteron has not effect as AI, that is loweing E2, just masking E2 effects, while Primobolan has several reports from people for lowering E2/AI effect.

 

[FlyGuy3232]

Masteron has not effect as AI, that is loweing E2, just masking E2 effects, while Primobolan has several reports from people for lowering E2/AI effect.

That is wildly incorrect. Supported by clinical data Mast both acts as an AI and SERM. It was originally formulated as a SERM for breast cancer treatment at a somewhat shockingly high dose for women (I believe around 400mg a week).

In men it quite effectively lowers E2 values.

The reason it appears to enhance sexual performance (if you have enough E2 left) is by both interacting directly with DHT receptors in the brain and its SERM properties.

This can appear to be the case with Primo but generally only with fakes apart from some people who appear to be outliers. If you run really high Primo, the only way it appears to lower E2 is by binding to the Aromatase (with low affinity) and basically occupying that space during which time Test cannot. This is a very slight effect at best.

Primo has never messed with my E2 levels.

I have bloodwork and seen plenty of other bloodwork confirming Mast significantly lowers E2 values. 600mg of Mast cuts my E2 in half when on 300mg of Test.

 

[Test_Subject]

Masteron has not effect as AI, that is loweing E2, just masking E2 effects, while Primobolan has several reports from people for lowering E2/AI effect.

It was approved by the FDA as an anti-estrogen for treating breast cancer, but OK…

 

[Alphalfa]

That is wildly incorrect. Supported by clinical data Mast both acts as an AI and SERM. It was originally formulated as a SERM for breast cancer treatment at a somewhat shockingly high dose for women (I believe around 400mg a week).

In men it quite effectively lowers E2 values.

The reason it appears to enhance sexual performance (if you have enough E2 left) is by both interacting directly with DHT receptors in the brain and its SERM properties.

This can appear to be the case with Primo but generally only with fakes apart from some people who appear to be outliers. If you run really high Primo, the only way it appears to lower E2 is by binding to the Aromatase (with low affinity) and basically occupying that space during which time Test cannot. This is a very slight effect at best.

Primo has never messed with my E2 levels.

I have bloodwork and seen plenty of other bloodwork confirming Mast significantly lowers E2 values. 600mg of Mast cuts my E2 in half when on 300mg of Test.

Sure, you must be one the few reports, if not the only one, of Mast acting as AI, rather than the opposite with Primobolan.

 

[FlyGuy3232]

Sure, you must be one the few reports, if not the only one, of Mast acting as AI, rather than the opposite with Primobolan.

Incorrect.

It is proven in clinical study, approved at one point by the FDA for it, and even used for around a decade for this.

Like I said, its not just my bloodwork. I've seen plenty of other bloodwork and talked to others who have observed the same thing.

If your gear is labeled as Primo and lowers E2 to any significant degree, then it is most likely Mast.

You're honestly just making a stupid argument and the facts of the matter are not on your side here.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

If your gear is labeled as Primo and lowers E2 to any significant degree, then it is most likely Mast.

People who are vigilant enough to get regular blood work aren’t buying their primo from Dave’s Bathtub Labs. They’re buying HPLC tested primo and then posting blood work showing that it lowers e2. Hell, up until about a year and a half ago the majority of people at Meso had no idea that EQ could crush your e2. This place is about a half decade behind the current data, which is maybe the only problem with this otherwise great community.

 

[FlyGuy3232]

People who are vigilant enough to get regular blood work aren’t buying their primo from Dave’s Bathtub Labs. They’re buying HPLC tested primo and then posting blood work showing that it lowers e2. Hell, up until about a year and a half ago the majority of people at Meso had no idea that EQ could crush your e2. This place is about a half decade behind the current data, which is maybe the only problem with this otherwise great community.

Data supporting what I said is over 4 decades old at this point.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

Data supporting what I said is over 4 decades old at this point.

And new data suggests that what you’re saying is at best incomplete and at worst simply an incorrect attribution of an effect to a plausible but unproven cause. If the argument is ‘all e2 lowering caused by primo must in actuality be caused by mast that’s disguised as primo’ then that’s really easy to disprove. It takes one single example to dismantle that logical construct. And I’m telling you there are dozens of guys who post blood work showing that after using primo their e2 is considerably lower than it otherwise would be. If you weed out the people who have untested gear—and that percentage is a lot lower than it was even five years ago—you’re still left with examples of people who have genuine primo and lower e2. Again, within the argument you’ve constructed that’s not possible. So either all of their inputs are fraudulent OR your argument is flawed. Which is more likely?

 

[Alphalfa]

Like I said, its not just my bloodwork. I've seen plenty of other bloodwork and talked to others who have observed the same thing.

Feel free to post those bloodworks, especially those of others who have observed the same.

If your gear is labeled as Primo and lowers E2 to any significant degree, then it is most likely Mast.

Welcome to 2021, and welcome to meso, plenty of lab test showing concentrations of Primobolan on point for most decent UGL in North America and Europe, not faked that much as long as you do your research.

You're honestly just making a stupid argument and the facts of the matter are not on your side here.

Still waiting for any recent real reports of Masteron acting as an AI nowadays in healthy individuals, rather than a 40 years old study showing some low evidence acting together with SERMs in breast cancer female survivors.

 

[mairomaster]

This can appear to be the case with Primo but generally only with fakes apart from some people who appear to be outliers. If you run really high Primo, the only way it appears to lower E2 is by binding to the Aromatase (with low affinity) and basically occupying that space during which time Test cannot. This is a very slight effect at best.

Primo has never messed with my E2 levels.

That's simply wrong. I've seen plenty of people running Primo at pretty low doses together with test (for example 200 Test 200 Primo) and still get their E2 quite a bit lower than usual. It seems to be ratio dependent, i.e. the more the Primo the more of an AI effect you get. Also many people have reported crashing their E2 with ratios like 1:2 or higher. Yeah probably doesn't happen with everybody, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of that.

I myself am example of that. Running 100 mg/week Test keeps my E2 around 40 pg/mL. Adding 200 mg/week Primo to that sends my E2 below 10 pg/mL. Confirmed by multiple blood tests. Also my Primo is 100% legit - tested with Jano sending an anonymous sample.

 

[FlyGuy3232]

And new data suggests that what you’re saying is at best incomplete and at worst simply an incorrect attribution of an effect to a plausible but unproven cause. If the argument is ‘all e2 lowering caused by primo must in actuality be caused by mast that’s disguised as primo’ then that’s really easy to disprove. It takes one single example to dismantle that logical construct. And I’m telling you there are dozens of guys who post blood work showing that after using primo their e2 is considerably lower than it otherwise would be. If you weed out the people who have untested gear—and that percentage is a lot lower than it was even five years ago—you’re still left with examples of people who have genuine primo and lower e2. Again, within the argument you’ve constructed that’s not possible. So either all of their inputs are fraudulent OR your argument is flawed. Which is more likely?

actually I mentioned a few outliers, but apparently you can't read. Right on.

 

[FlyGuy3232]

Feel free to post those bloodworks, especially those of others who have observed the same.

Welcome to 2021, and welcome to meso, plenty of lab test showing concentrations of Primobolan on point for most decent UGL in North America and Europe, not faked that much as long as you do your research.


Still waiting for any recent real reports of Masteron acting as an AI nowadays in healthy individuals, rather than a 40 years old study showing some low evidence acting together with SERMs in breast cancer female survivors.

Its been observed for decades dude. And lol I've been here much longer than you.

I've seen it and many in the powerlifting community see it too (mast is fairly popular in powerlifting).

This isn't new, its the same old behavior that has been observed over decades.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

actually I mentioned a few outliers, but apparently you can't read. Right on.

Hand waving in the direction of “a few outliers” isn’t an argument, bud. You seem to be getting a little mad over this, which is hard to understand. But since that’s the case I will leave you be.

 

[FlyGuy3232]

That's simply wrong. I've seen plenty of people running Primo at pretty low doses together with test (for example 200 Test 200 Primo) and still get their E2 quite a bit lower than usual. It seems to be ratio dependent, i.e. the more the Primo the more of an AI effect you get. Also many people have reported crashing their E2 with ratios like 1:2 or higher. Yeah probably doesn't happen with everybody, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of that.

I myself am example of that. Running 100 mg/week Test keeps my E2 around 40 pg/mL. Adding 200 mg/week Primo to that sends my E2 below 10 pg/mL. Confirmed by multiple blood tests. Also my Primo is 100% legit - tested with Jano sending an anonymous sample.

Holy shit I already mentioned how this happens with Primo. You literally cite what your experience is and it lines up exactly with how I said it works.

There are other factors in play here too such as how long you'd been on 100mg T at the time and when your last dose was when you checked it against Primo.

And yes, it is nothing special to have legit Primo these days in the US. You guys keep bitching about that and it isn't even a point of discussion here.

It is however worth noting that this is not the case for everyone. I've personally talked to Eastern EU guys who cannot get legit Primo at all and they've even had it checked only to find out it was just Deca.

 

[FlyGuy3232]

Hand waving in the direction of “a few outliers” isn’t an argument, bud. You seem to be getting a little mad over this, which is hard to understand. But since that’s the case I will leave you be.

That's a lot of words for "I don't understand the concept of genetics"