An email from my doc:

[jasonshadow]

Here is an email from my doctor. She is a naturalpathic doctor and the only one who really listened to me. (Probably b/c I was paying her and not the insurance company)

"Chorionic Gonadotrophin injections are something I can prescribe and
teach you how to self administer. But, I cannot write a diagnosis of
hypogonadism for you, because nothing in your lab work is truly out of
range. In order to use it under the diagnosis of infertility you would
need to have a sperm annalysis preformed. Otherwise it is what is
called an off label use, it is the same with the testosterone.
Did you want to do a trial of this starting with 480 IU 3 X a week then
retest your LH, FSH, E3 and Testosterone levels after the first week to
see your response? I can order in the salivary testing kits, we have
them for women, but not for men.
Let me know."

Here are my labs:
3 months ago:
FSH 2.0 (0.7-11.1)
LH 2.3 (0.8-7.6)
Prolactin 10.6 (2.5-17.0)
cortisol 14.0 (4.0-22.0)
IGF 263 (114-492)
TSH w/reflux to T4 2.79 (0.45-4.50)
Total Testosterone 485 (260-1000)
Free Testosterone 2.38 (1.0-2.7)
Tesosterone, Free 115.2 (50-210)

1 Month ago
Prolactin-17.7 (2.5-17.0)
Cortisol-21.4 (4.0-22.0)
Estradiol-<20 (<57)
FSH-2.1 (0.7-11.1)
LH-3.5 (0.8-7.6)
TSH-3.65 (0.45-4.50)
Total Testosterone-373 (189-1111)
% of Free Testosterone-2.29 (1.1-2.8)
Test, Free-85.5 (40.0-150.

1 week ago:
TSH w/reflex to free T4-3.83 (0.45-4.50)
Total Tesosterone=540 (189-1111)
% Free Testosterone-1.99 (1.1-2.8)
Tesosterone, Free-107.2 (40.-150.0)
DHT-31 (25-75)
SHBG-17 (7-50)
T3 Free Non-Dialysis-3.4 (1.8-5.4)
Cortisol AM-8.9 (4.0-22.0)
IGF-319 (114-492)
DHEA-289 (125-619)
Estradiol <20 (<57)
FSH-2.6 (0.7-11.1)
LH-3.8 (0.8-7.6)

My problem is, I don't think she is knowledgable in HRT enough to monitor me correctly. She already said that she would not work with Dr. Crisler too. What do you guys think. Should I try the HCG and see if there is improvement or do you guys think I should even being trying HRT at all?

FYI-29 years old.
2 full testosterone based cycles-last cycle 3 years ago
1 prohormone cycle-5 years ago
Symptoms-Low libidio, fatigue, slow recovery from workouts, brain fog, mildly depressed.

Thanks guys,
J

 

[ciobl]

jasonshadow ->
bro, what is it you want to do ?
do you want to consider yourself hypogonadal ? I mean, its not something to brag about but if you start with self-administration I can guarantee you will be one.
maybe other experienced bros can help you out some more, in my opinion from looking at your labs hcg can help you out with fsh and lh, receptors in general.
just try 50 mg/zinc a day, dont go any higher than that.
wait a month, see how you feel.

i can't comment on clomiphene or tamoxifen as I have heard different people experience different side effects with them.

take care bro

 

[jasonshadow]

LOL!!! I know it probably comes across that way. I just want to feel like I used too. No one knows there body better than yourself and I sincerely feel my symptoms are due to low T-levels. I just haven't found someone who is knowledgable enough in HRT to tell me that my levels are normal.

 

[ciobl]

LOL!!! I know it probably comes across that way. I just want to feel like I used too. No one knows there body better than yourself and I sincerely feel my symptoms are due to low T-levels. I just haven't found someone who is knowledgable enough in HRT to tell me that my levels are normal.

I said it 'cause I see your posts more than stickies.

seriously, think for a minute, t looks fine, forget about t.
if it goes less than 300 then worry about t
estrogen, maybe.
so you play it safe with zinc, nothing to loose.

take care bro

 

[cpeil2]

I don't know, your values look awfully normal. But, good docs ofen say that they treat people rather than lab values, and you're having symptoms that you think could be caused by low T. Once or twice, in the time that I have been reading this forum, Swale has said of someone who had values like yours that a trial of low-dose transdermal T might be worthwhile. I can't remember, but in these cases, I think the free and bioavailable T were low. Yours are solidly mid-range.

Have your doc take a second look at TSH and T3. While in the normal range, they aren't optimal. I suppose at your age, subclinical hypothyroidism is unlikely, but it might explain your symptoms. A trial of T3 might be more appropriate than T or hCG.

 

[DavidZ]

No one knows there body better than yourself and I sincerely feel my symptoms are due to low T-levels.

What are your symptoms?

 

[jasonshadow]

my symtoms are low libido, fatigue, brain fog, low concentration, long recovery from workouts, shortness of breath, and mild depression. I'm starting to think my thyroid might be the real issue. But my endocronologist doesnt seem to think so. I offered just trying a thyroid medication like Armour to see if my symptoms get better and he said it would be a waste of time.

 

[cpeil2]

Mainstream endos usually don't believe in using Armour thyroid. If they're going to put somebody on thyroid hormone, they're going to use something like Synthroid. They also don't believe that there is such a thing as subclinical hypothyroidism.

You might have to find a doc who's not wearing blinders.

 

[DavidZ]

my symtoms are low libido, fatigue, brain fog, low concentration, long recovery from workouts, shortness of breath, and mild depression. I'm starting to think my thyroid might be the real issue. But my endocronologist doesnt seem to think so. I offered just trying a thyroid medication like Armour to see if my symptoms get better and he said it would be a waste of time.

It is possible that, while a T level of 400 to 500 is enough for many men, it's not enough for you.

Have you considered Selegiline? See pp. 188-189 of Shippen's book.

 

[ciobl]

It is possible that, while a T level of 400 to 500 is enough for many men, it's not enough for you.

Have you considered Selegiline? See pp. 188-189 of Shippen's book.

DavidZ -> bro you are very informed and I appreciate your insights but are there any noticeable side effects on deprenyl ?

I mean, don't get me wrong, the doctor already agreed to prescribe him hcg, if you tell jasonshadow to take deprenyl he's gonna go for it.

from what i have read it is more a mental pill than anything else when hes probably having problems with t/e balance in the first place.

i say this 'cause nobody can't rely on a lab done a month ago. maybe you can help him out some more on hcg-only since you are experienced with that protocol.

take care bro

 

[DavidZ]

...are there any noticeable side effects on deprenyl ?

The only side effect that I have with Selegiline is feeling a little bit stimulated. For example, if you take too much at bedtime, you might find it difficult to get to sleep or to stay asleep.

from what i have read it is more a mental pill than anything else...

Not true. Selegiline has some mild anti-depressive effects, but that's only one small facet of a much larger story. Did you read pp. 188-189 of Shippen's book before posting?

IIRC, Selegiline is used primarily for Parkinson's disease, which is a deficiency of dopamine in the brain. Selegiline extends the life of dopamine in the brain.

Selegiline has also been the darling of the anti-aging movement for many years. I suggest you read up on it.

...when he's probably having problems with t/e balance in the first place...maybe you can help him out some more on hcg-only since you are experienced with that protocol.

I tried Selegiline alone before I tried HCG. At the maximum dosage (10 mg/day) it only raised my T from about 200 to about 400 which wasn't enough for me. I was very disappointed.

IMO, Selegiline is a much better option than HCG if it works for you. The advantages include ease of dosing and E2 management.

 

[pmgamer18]

my symtoms are low libido, fatigue, brain fog, low concentration, long recovery from workouts, shortness of breath, and mild depression. I'm starting to think my thyroid might be the real issue. But my endocronologist doesnt seem to think so. I offered just trying a thyroid medication like Armour to see if my symptoms get better and he said it would be a waste of time.

My wife has thyroid and they had to use Iodine to Zap it so they could control her with thyroid meds. They put her on Synthroid she never felt good and it has been over 12 yrs. of this. She has been to one Endo after the other same shit up or down on Synthroid. I tell her to see my Dr. and she say mind your own business. Well I finely got her to see my Dr. after her last visit to her Endo she told him she did not feel right and that she is getting worse he just told her she is in rang and to lose weight.
This was 5 months ago she went to see my Dr. he put her on Armour and now she feels much better then she has in 12 yrs.
Phil

 

[jasonshadow]

"The only side effect that I have with Selegiline is feeling a little bit stimulated. For example, if you take too much at bedtime, you might find it difficult to get to sleep or to stay asleep."

Given this info. I would assume if someone is prone to anxiety that this may not be a wise option?

 

[Matt Muscle]

"The only side effect that I have with Selegiline is feeling a little bit stimulated. For example, if you take too much at bedtime, you might find it difficult to get to sleep or to stay asleep."

Given this info. I would assume if someone is prone to anxiety that this may not be a wise option?

Yes it may not be a good idea.. I found selegilline quite speedy and yes it did make me feel quite edgy... but this could be a dosage problem.

Your T labs really do look normal.. but yor DHT does look quite low... As DHT is meant to be so responsible for our libido and as swale says "all things male".. would this not be contributing to your lack of sex drive and brain fog?
Why your body is not converting enough T into DHT I do not know?

 

[jasonshadow]

Matt Muscle,

I took Propecia for 3 years. I quit 2 months ago. Propecia of course lowers DHT.

 

[Matt Muscle]

Matt Muscle,

I took Propecia for 3 years. I quit 2 months ago. Propecia of course lowers DHT.

Yes. I am sorry, i just checked your previous posts and I mentioned the after effects of finasteride use to you once before.
Off course your body is recovering from the use of this drug and its effects on DHT.
All the symptoms you speak of are what many guys experience from propecia.
The after effects for some have remained for years after stopping the drug.
Did you investigate the group I referred you to and speak to the other guys, who have not yet been able to pinpoint why and how these nasty persistent side effects occur.
Interfering with your bodys ability to convert testosterone into DHT with this medication is in my opinion to be avoided like the plague.

 

[SWALE]

You already know, form this Forum, that 480 (where did that exact dose come from?) IU of HCG is too much to take at one time.

Retesting gonadotrophins in two weeks does not make much sense. And I am not sure why she would check "E3" as opposed to E2, although this surely could just be a typo. BTW, you need to run an ultrasensitive assay, as a result of "<20" is not appropriate for male patients.

Be appreciative, though, she is willing to prescribe TRT.

Yes, you need to have DHT levels checked.

With a TSH that high I would recommend thyroid supplementation, with a T3/T4 mix, such as Armour. I switch my guys from Synthroid to Armour, and it makes most of them feel much better.

 

[DavidZ]

"The only side effect that I have with Selegiline is feeling a little bit stimulated. For example, if you take too much at bedtime, you might find it difficult to get to sleep or to stay asleep."

Given this info. I would assume if someone is prone to anxiety that this may not be a wise option?

Not necessarily. The only way to find out is to try it. If it makes you feel too wired, stop taking it. Or try a lower dosage.

 

[ciobl]

Did you want to do a trial of this starting with 480 IU 3 X a week

i find 250 iu 2 x week with 100 cyp more than enough

My problem is, I don't think she is knowledgable in HRT enough to monitor me correctly. She already said that she would not work with Dr. Crisler too.

why wouldn't she work with him ? i mean, does she have anything to loose ? oh man,