Androgel Vs Testim.

[SinginHawk]

Although Testim seems to have better absorbtion than Androgel, it seems that Testim pushed E2 up higher than Androgel. Iwas on 2 Andro and had Total T of 500 with E2 of 31 and then went to 1 1/2 testim with Total T of 522 and E2 of 47. Free on Testim is 159. I didn't get free on Androgel.

Anyone have any thoughts on that.

thanks

 

[earthdog]

Swale has stated that total T assays are notoriously inaccurate. They can be off by as much as 50%. Therefore there is no real difference between 500 and 522. The 500 could really be 700 and the 522 could really be 400. You just don't know. So you have to rely more on total T. Also you need the ranges to make sense out of any of it.

 

[SinginHawk]

?

Did you mean you need the FREE T to make sense of it?

Do you think it is a mistake to switch brands. 1 1/2 Testim vs 2 Androgel?

 

[earthdog]

Did you mean you need the FREE T to make sense of it?

Do you think it is a mistake to switch brands. 1 1/2 Testim vs 2 Androgel?

Not me personally, all I meant was that in order to correctly interpret any labs, the tests have to include free T, because total T isn't reliable enough.

I know very little about the transdermals, so I can't really say.

 

[stat1951]

I wonder though. Weren't DIM doses being altered back and forth around that time period?

Specifically what changes were being made during the week to two weeks just prior to the test that showed the Total T of 522 and E2 of 47? Not just with DIM, but also with things like alterations in Thy meds... those types of alterations could have boosted E2 levels (on the Testim results).

So it may have "possibly" been an unfair comparison between the AndroGel level and the Testim level. As far as I know (IMHO), there's no difference whatsoever between their active ingredient (it is "Testosterone USP"), so the testosterone is exactly the same. As far as I know, the Testim itself could only push your E2 levels up via the mechanism of raising your Total T levels. The T then gets aromatized into E2 by your own body... not by anything that's in the Testim.

If it was the Testim alone that was responsible for raising your E2 levels to a 47 - compared to AndroGel's 31 - well, that is a 152% difference, so Testim SHOULD have raised your Total T to 762 to have accounted for that raise in your E2. But Testim has your Total T level at 522 - which after all is just barely above the 500 that you were on with AndroGel.

Also you don't have the more vital Free T numbers to give a more accurate comparison.

So unless there's some factor that I'm missing - maybe like Testim somehow delivering a huge spike early which somehow stimulates E 2 production - I would tend to think that it's not the different brands of the transdermal gels that are of concern. And then the other involved factors complicate the situation quite a bit... different DIM doses, days w/out DIM at all, different levels of Thy meds, etc., all cloud the picture and complicate pointing a finger to a causative factor.....

Has any other Board member (hopefully reading this Thread) had any experience with Testim specifically raising E2 levels fairly dramatically? And if so, why that would happen? Could it be something like Testim delivering an initial high "plasma burst effect" and that activity causing a spike in E2 conversion???

Larry

 

[Michael T]

Testim and penadentalactone

I was on Androgel for 2 months and had little absorption due to
my dry skin. I switched to testim and got a little better absorption due
to the emolient of penadentalactone that is one of its ingredients. It
is an ingredient that many of our "body" products have in it to enhance
absorption. I still did not get my levels high enough to really feel better
though, I had to switch to the injections.

Michael T,

 

[cpeil2]

Although Testim seems to have better absorbtion than Androgel, it seems that Testim pushed E2 up higher than Androgel. Iwas on 2 Andro and had Total T of 500 with E2 of 31 and then went to 1 1/2 testim with Total T of 522 and E2 of 47. Free on Testim is 159. I didn't get free on Androgel.

Did you switch directly from AG to Testim, or was there a time interval in between during which you allowed your hormone levels to return to baseline?

I'm only guessing, but it seems like the time factor would be important if you switched from one to the other without any gap in between. The higher E2 level could be a result of a longer exposure to endogenous T, which would result in T having been aromotized to E2 over a longer period, creating an opportunity for E2 level to climb higher with the Testim.

It doesn't seem possible to compare the performance of AG and Testim unless you allowed your hormone levels to return to baseline between using the two agents.

 

[SinginHawk]

Gels

I went from 1 andro, to 2 then, to 2 testim, to 1 testim, then to 1 1/2 testim and now back to 2 andro.

So who knows. It will be intersting what the E2 will be now since as you say I have been "exposed" to the T for a while now. I just need to figure out if these sweats are from E2 or from too high Thy. They are killing me. My labs don't show too high Thy but my body may be more sensitive since on higher T level or E 2 levels.

 

[SWALE]

I consider them interchangeable. Michael T's post is very useful.

 

[cpeil2]

I went from 1 andro, to 2 then, to 2 testim, to 1 testim, then to 1 1/2 testim and now back to 2 andro.

So who knows. It will be intersting what the E2 will be now since as you say I have been "exposed" to the T for a while now. I just need to figure out if these sweats are from E2 or from too high Thy. They are killing me. My labs don't show too high Thy but my body may be more sensitive since on higher T level or E 2 levels.

My story's similar. I started TRT in October with a transdermal. At the same time, I started on thyroid hormone. The first few weeks went great, then I began having the same kind of problems you're experiencing, no matter how we fiddled with the hormones. We could never isolate the source of the problem. The whole thing became such a distraction that I decided to completely stop all HRT and give my system plenty of time to return to baseline. Life is quieter now, and I'm about ready to try again.

 

[SinginHawk]

Hum

It's funny you said that I was contemplating stopping or at least backing off T. I was doing "ok" or "better" on 2 grains of Thy and 1 Testim or Andro, Seems as soon as I go up on T thigs get messed up. My T levels were low but E2 was also low and I was sleeping much better than now.

G

 

[stat1951]

Personally I find that Testim takes a considerably longer time to (A) dry and (B) fully pentrate the surface skin layer. I can take a shower a few hours after using AG and not feel anything. I can take a shower a few hours after using Testim and feel the "surface gel" washing off.

That said....

I was the same way (considering them interchangeable) with this until I began reading numerous postings (especially at the H2 Board, but also at some other places) that indicated that TRT patients were having noticeably higher readings of Total Tand Free T with Testim as compared to AG.

That got me to doing some research and there was actually a "two-period, randomized, complete crossover study" done that compared 5 grams of AG to 5 grams of Testim... and the study corroborated what many of these users have been saying: "therefore Testim trade mark and AndroGel are not bioequivalent with Testim providing higher serum levels and greater bioavailability than AndroGel."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12673669&query_hl=5

So with all of its other aggravations, I opted to use the Testim. While this was definitely a small study (29 males), it just seemed to corroborate what so many individuals had said (in fact, I don't recall reading one post where the individual indicated that they had better Total T and Free T readings on AG as compared to the same levels of Testim). And just so it's clear, my Total T with 10 grams of AG was only 500, so it's not like supraphysiological levels of T are being sought here....

I consider them interchangeable. Michael T's post is very useful.

 

[wildfox]

I found that Testim was much harder to rinse off the hands than Androgel. Testim also has a stronger fragrance. Not sure if that's intentional or not. Either way, I found that a full packet of either was too much. My prior endo was not monitoring me properly. At this point I refuse to use such gels until my new endo says I need it and is willing to prescribe using less than one packet per day. Too much makes me very aggressive, more than I find constructive.

WF

 

[earthdog]

At this point I refuse to use such gels until my new endo says I need it and is willing to prescribe using less than one packet per day. Too much makes me very aggressive, more than I find constructive.

Androgel now comes in a pump bottle. Four pumps equals five grams of gel.