Another approach to sterilization.

[bdg77]

I was thinking the other day about various sterilization protocols. I was just wondering what people might think about this approach. First of all let me just say that I don't trust a whatman or really any other physical filtration device by itself for sterilty. It's a piece of plastic with pdf media inside. They can crack, blowout, deform (from heat or by applying too much pressure). Just for the record I think putting a whatman in a caulk gun is just a bad idea. They're are techniques to using whatmans (backflowing to unclog) and brute force is not a good one. Even after filtering with a 45 or 22 I would want to sterilize with heat also. So forget the 22. Anyways, thus follows is what I'm thinking. Say you have a pot of hot oil with temp control. You can make it 200F-400F. Say you added the correct amounts of raw, bb and ba to vials. Then with a pipette for add 10ml oil thats's say 300F. Cap it. Maybe swirl it around a bit but until the oils cooled down to 200 and shake it (this would only be to prevent excessive contact with hot oil and stopper, if it can take it then shake it up) at that point if necessary. Not sure what the max temp you would want to expose rubber stopper to is. Then other much faster method would be combine all ingredients in pot heat to appropriate temp (250-300?). Then add to vial and cap. Does that sound like a good idea for sterilty? Seems to me like everything would get hot enough to kill any micro organisms. The key would be getting oil and bottle hot enough but not too hot that raw gets burned or degraded. An infrared temp gun would come in handy for this. Just want to get feedback or critiques for this method. And nobody worry I don't brew anything. This is all theoritical.

 

[kap73]

you still need to filter no matter what from what i understand.. from what i know if everything your using is sterile (beakers,media bottles,vials,stoppers, work area etc) then the most important thing is the .22 filter and 1% or more BA.. autoclaving or 15psi pressure cooking is an extra (not overkill but also from what I've read not 100% necessary)
wait 1 week after brewing for the BA to kill any bacteria that may have made it through the .22 filter.

for the record, i use 2% BA, i sterilise all my utensils and vials etc in oven for 4hours at 260C then brew and filter through .22 and cap it then pressure cook for 60mins at a minimum.

 

[I_know_nothing]

ok a few things,

1. this would absolutely not work with tren, and we all love/hate tren.

2. one of the reasons for filtering with a .22 is to get rid of any particles that may have fallen into the brew, just random pieces of junk that might have got in

3. if you filter, put in vial, seal and then heat sterilize it might work, but i think the way you're describing is filter, put it all in a big "pot" to heat sterilize and then put in vial. as soon as you put the filtered oil in the pot, it's no longer filtered. you want to minimize contact with the external environment between filtering and putting in vial/sealing

4. whether you trust a whatman .22 or not, it is effective.

 

[bdg77]

ok a few things,

1. this would absolutely not work with tren, and we all love/hate tren.

2. one of the reasons for filtering with a .22 is to get rid of any particles that may have fallen into the brew, just random pieces of junk that might have got in

3. if you filter, put in vial, seal and then heat sterilize it might work, but i think the way you're describing is filter, put it all in a big "pot" to heat sterilize and then put in vial. as soon as you put the filtered oil in the pot, it's no longer filtered. you want to minimize contact with the external environment between filtering and putting in vial/sealing

4. whether you trust a whatman .22 or not, it is effective.

Why do you say it wouldn't work with tren? Does it have a low burn point or are you refering to fina extraction? Either way I wouldn't be interested in making tren.
Second point, no particles would fall into brew. Everything would be clean, wiped with alc. It would be done in a room with hepa filtration, deionization and uv light sterilization. In fact you can buy a unit that does all three. Plus another big hepa filter. Each one made for a much bigger room. Running all the time. I would never considering brewing in a garage or bathroom. It would be done in "clean room" conditions.
A .45 filter will remove any particles down to .45 microns that's pretty tiny. They are hard enough to use. It just doesn't make sense to me to use a .22, I have a feeling you could actually end up filtering some compound out. If the oil is exposed to air at any point b4 seal is made all your .22 filtering is for nothing. They say you should be able to filter about 100cc of oil through a whatman in done right. This takes prewetting filter, backflowing to unclog media. If your syringe isn't big enough then backloading. And then at the end your going to want to run some oil you set aside to purge filter. There's a lot of things that can happen that you might not be prepared for.
I'd probably want to recrystalize and wash raws b4 even using just to check purity.
Ok so say everythings been combined and pushed through a .45 whatman. Then heating brew to 400F, you put 10cc in vial and cap it. Surely that amount of heat is going to kill anything. Probably don't even need to go quite that hot. The whole vial is going to heat up, aluminum ring and all. Sounds pretty sterile to me.

 

[I_know_nothing]

"bdg77, post: 1253811, member: 21946"]Why do you say it wouldn't work with tren? Does it have a low burn point or are you refering to fina extraction? Either way I wouldn't be interested in making tren.

tren starts to oxidize and degrade at around 100F. Go past 150F and you're going to lose a lot of potency with tren

Second point, no particles would fall into brew. Everything would be clean, wiped with alc. It would be done in a room with hepa filtration, deionization and uv light sterilization. In fact you can buy a unit that does all three. Plus another big hepa filter. Each one made for a much bigger room. Running all the time. I would never considering brewing in a garage or bathroom. It would be done in "clean room" conditions.

there's no guarantees, you would have to work under a flow hood and a good one is going to run you several grand.

A .45 filter will remove any particles down to .45 microns that's pretty tiny. They are hard enough to use. It just doesn't make sense to me to use a .22, I have a feeling you could actually end up filtering some compound out. If the oil is exposed to air at any point b4 seal is made all your .22 filtering is for nothing.

there are bacteria that are smaller than 0.45 um. check out the UG section, manwhore gets called out for thinking 0.45 is enough, it isnt. 0.22 is the safest way to go. you wont filter out any compound if its dissolved in solution, the molecules are smaller than 0.22um. unfortunately you have to remove the filter top in order to get to the oil, there's no way around that, it will get exposed to the air. you just want to reduce the amount of time it is exposed.

They say you should be able to filter about 100cc of oil through a whatman in done right. This takes prewetting filter, backflowing to unclog media. If your syringe isn't big enough then backloading. And then at the end your going to want to run some oil you set aside to purge filter. There's a lot of things that can happen that you might not be prepared for.

it depends on the whatman, different filters are made to handle different amounts of volume. for example the syringe filter is going to handle less than a bottle top filter.

I'd probably want to recrystalize and wash raws b4 even using just to check purity.
Ok so say everythings been combined and pushed through a .45 whatman. Then heating brew to 400F, you put 10cc in vial and cap it. Surely that amount of heat is going to kill anything. Probably don't even need to go quite that hot. The whole vial is going to heat up, aluminum ring and all. Sounds pretty sterile to me.[/QUOTE]

400F you're really going to be testing that rubber stopper and the aluminum in the cap. i believe test starts to degrade at around 300F, i doubt there are steroids that can handle 400F, in your quest to be ultra sterile you've going to get a completely inert solution, you'll just be injecting degraded steroid molecules in oil. you also need to be sure the raws are completely dry, as you do not want to be injecting methanol into your body.

have you brewed before? no offense but i think you are severely overthinking the process. i understand you are trying to be sterile, but you have to draw a line between being sterile with adequate protocols and going overboard with diminishing returns. you will be surprised at how easy it is to sterillize with simply a 0.22um whatman. i see you've done your research and reading, but experience is just as important. try it out yourself and you'll learn a lot.

 

[bdg77]

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I realize 400F is way too hot. Some numbers I was just arbitrarily throwing out to make a point. I actually do have some experience. That was with personal gear. If I was to even consider giving gear to anyone else it would have to be 110% perfect. Redundant sterility. The way I see it the customer is always right, even when they're wrong. So if someone really wants their gear ran through a .22 filter, fine. Just going to take a bit longer and cost a bit more. Still pressure cook, autoclave, doubleboil (for my piece of mind). Then everybodys happy, I guess.

 

[I_know_nothing]

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I realize 400F is way too hot. Some numbers I was just arbitrarily throwing out to make a point. I actually do have some experience. That was with personal gear. If I was to even consider giving gear to anyone else it would have to be 110% perfect. Redundant sterility. The way I see it the customer is always right, even when they're wrong. So if someone really wants their gear ran through a .22 filter, fine. Just going to take a bit longer and cost a bit more. Still pressure cook, autoclave, doubleboil (for my piece of mind). Then everybodys happy, I guess.

and i appreciate your open-mindedness. man, i sometimes sell or give homebrew to close friends but im too scared to get into the sourcing business, there's too many things that could go wrong, esp with so much accountability as seller.

pressure cooker/autoclave is the way to go because it allows for sterilization at a lower heat due to a higher pressure. let me know if you have any more questions, im not a master homebrewer, but i do have some experience

 

[bdg77]

Yeah, I pretty much just made this thread to get some feedback. I haven't brewed in ages and would rather not have to. Learned the ropes with fina/syno conversions back in the day. So the few occasions I've used a raw was a cakewalk by comparison. It's really not a difficult thing. I'd say it's 90% common sense and 10% knowing the critical numbers.
You'll have to pardon me when I metioned recrytalization. I just assumed rinsing it over and over and over again with distilled H2O for the better part of an hour was just standard practice. Well at least I hope it is. I just can't get comfortable with relying 100% on a filter for sterilization. It's one thing when your working with presealed sterile vials. But crimping your own is a different story. I'd like to see how an approved human grade laboratory works. Probably with a lot of automated equipment and people just watching.

 

[kap73]

Yeah, I pretty much just made this thread to get some feedback. I haven't brewed in ages and would rather not have to. Learned the ropes with fina/syno conversions back in the day. So the few occasions I've used a raw was a cakewalk by comparison. It's really not a difficult thing. I'd say it's 90% common sense and 10% knowing the critical numbers.
You'll have to pardon me when I metioned recrytalization. I just assumed rinsing it over and over and over again with distilled H2O for the better part of an hour was just standard practice. Well at least I hope it is. I just can't get comfortable with relying 100% on a filter for sterilization. It's one thing when your working with presealed sterile vials. But crimping your own is a different story. I'd like to see how an approved human grade laboratory works. Probably with a lot of automated equipment and people just watching.

how are u relying 100% on the filter? i don't understand

 

[bdg77]

how are u relying 100% on the filter? i don't understand

No, no and no. In my opinion relying on the filter alone just isn't good enough. In theory it may be good enough. But in reality things don't alway work the way they should. I'm trying to emphasize the importance of sterilization with heat and pressure. Enough to do the job but not damage product. A lot of people do think you can rely %100 on a .22 micron filter and I'm sure it usually works. Then there's the benzyl alcohol to finish the job and keep it sterile. I'm sure someone else could explain how to do it with filter alone. Probably when using vacuum pump type setups. The way I described it in my first post didn't even involve filtration. I was talking about using the oil at a high enough temp to kill any microbes and sterilze vials. Maybe vials should be heated in oven first to make sure they're good. This is just a mental simulation on techiques.

 

[kap73]

No, no and no. In my opinion relying on the filter alone just isn't good enough. In theory it may be good enough. But in reality things don't alway work the way they should. I'm trying to emphasize the importance of sterilization with heat and pressure. Enough to do the job but not damage product. A lot of people do think you can rely %100 on a .22 micron filter and I'm sure it usually works. Then there's the benzyl alcohol to finish the job and keep it sterile. I'm sure someone else could explain how to do it with filter alone. Probably when using vacuum pump type setups. The way I described it in my first post didn't even involve filtration. I was talking about using the oil at a high enough temp to kill any microbes and sterilze vials. Maybe vials should be heated in oven first to make sure they're good. This is just a mental simulation on techiques.

i understand what your saying mate and i get the cautious approach
u can boil the carrier oil for 60+ min (find out what temp is req for the one your using) before brewing, this can help burn off any unsterile items. then let it cool to a brewing temp

i don't think people just rely on the filter, its a combination of the filtering/BA that kill off the unwanted.

yes the oven baking of vials prior to filling them is a MUST.. like i said in my first comment i bake my vials after throughly rinsing them, for 4 hours at 260C

then after I've brewed and capped (all in a sterile atmosphere) i pressure cook at 15psi for 1 hour minimum.. but after all this is complete then the last line of defence (other than safe injection methods) is the BA content. hence why most people recommend waiting 7 days after brewing till they inject

this is the way I've researched and been advised. I've injected myself for 6 weeks now with my first brew and all is well.. touch wood

 

[Big_paul]

Brother you have to filter your gear period, and use a 22. I have known guys who didn't and wish they had.

If you are using heat plus filtering cool, but it is a must to filter.

 

[bdg77]

Brother you have to filter your gear period, and use a 22. I have known guys who didn't and wish they had.

If you are using heat plus filtering cool, but it is a must to filter.

I hear ya, a combination of the two it a good idea. I just brewed some gear in my head. It's the little details, like making sure vials and stoppers are sterile and clean that make me think.

 

[Toomba]

Anyone have any hints on regulating the temp while pressure cooking?

 

[fightingfires]

temp is relative to pressure in a pressure vessel. At 15psi which most pressure cookers run at, the temp will not exceed 250F (if I recall correctly)
At 250 the little shaker teeters and allows the pressure to remain constant no matter what

 

[Notits]

Way to complicated.
Sterilize your vials with pressure and heat.
.22 whatman into a sterile collection receptacle. This removes undissolved particulate contaminates and sterilizes your brew and the combination of BA keeps it that way.
Pressure cooking sealed vials is pointless the pressure DOES NOT PERMEATE THE VIALS. Heat cooks your ba and degrades the hormone. I can only imagine how good it is for your stoppers.
You add BA for a reason, trust it to do its job.
But you absolultey cannot avoid the
.22 um filtration its it the only way to particulate free and sterile gear, not baking in the oven - especially with trenbolone.

 

[devildog93]

I know we've seen versions of this floating around, but thought this might be a good time to throw it out there again as a way of cleaning up raws. http://juicedmuscle.com/jmblog/content/more-labscale-experiments

Has anyone done this or something similar themselves? It seems like a pretty good way to add another step that might help out with the final purity and possibly remove some of the garbage from 70% raws.

 

[Notits]

I know we've seen versions of this floating around, but thought this might be a good time to throw it out there again as a way of cleaning up raws. http://juicedmuscle.com/jmblog/content/more-labscale-experiments

Has anyone done this or something similar themselves? It seems like a pretty good way to add another step that might help out with the final purity and possibly remove some of the garbage from 70% raws.

Does anyone know if this process strips away the ester also?

 

[devildog93]

I think Flenser talked about doing something along these lines, but never said if it came out ok or not.

 

[jacked44]

Way to complicated.
Sterilize your vials with pressure and heat.
.22 whatman into a sterile collection receptacle. This removes undissolved particulate contaminates and sterilizes your brew and the combination of BA keeps it that way.
Pressure cooking sealed vials is pointless the pressure DOES NOT PERMEATE THE VIALS. Heat cooks your ba and degrades the hormone. I can only imagine how good it is for your stoppers.
You add BA for a reason, trust it to do its job.
But you absolultey cannot avoid the
.22 um filtration its it the only way to particulate free and sterile gear, not baking in the oven - especially with trenbolone.

^^^^^THIS! Don't over complicate things.