Asia pharm and BD busted???

[biggerben69]

What cause do you think I have?

And no, I will never start "approving" sources. I don't play that game - in public or in private.

And I don't advertise sources. I haven't had a banner for a pharmacy-related ecommerce site on this forum in over four years.

Why the personal hostility, BigKarch? If you have something to say, come out and say it.

I'm not BigK's mouthpiece Millard, but if I had to guess, it's not hostility, it's frustration.
I'm a bit frustrated myself, sir. Without a doubt, you're much more intelligent than I am. I know brothers consider you one of "us". By "us" I mean the community. There are board owners that are and that aren't. The ones that aren't are the ones that have rolled over for the almighty dollar. Big A is the first that comes to mind of the ones that "aren't".
I appreciate the no banner thing and the rest. I guess I'm just hoping that at some point you go further. A man in your position of influence could do the community a huge service by stating in print what the vets in this community are saying. And the "community" is not just Meso, Millard.
I have much respect for you, Millard. But you're a smart man in a position of great influence. By sitting on the fence, you're doing more harm than good to all the noobs and and the entire community by not taking a stand. It could appear as if you're playing politician.
It reads to me as if you're not willing to take a stand. You say you need more "proof". There are people such as your self BigK and several sources that have been around for a very long time because they have integrity. There isn't people or groups of people trying to undermine you or the long time sources. It can't be done because they have integrity and have others with integrity backing them up. They don't need hired guns that run around shilling such as we've seen happen here. The WP mercenaries are relentless.
If I've offended you, Millard, that was not my intention. It's frustration just I as assume you're seeing in BigK.

 

[Millard]

I'm not BigK's mouthpiece Millard, but if I had to guess, it's not hostility, it's frustration.
I'm a bit frustrated myself, sir. Without a doubt, you're much more intelligent than I am. I know brothers consider you one of "us". By "us" I mean the community. There are board owners that are and that aren't. The ones that aren't are the ones that have rolled over for the almighty dollar. Big A is the first that comes to mind of the ones that "aren't".
I appreciate the no banner thing and the rest. I guess I'm just hoping that at some point you go further. A man in your position of influence could do the community a huge service by stating in print what the vets in this community are saying. And the "community" is not just Meso, Millard.
I have much respect for you, Millard. But you're a smart man in a position of great influence. By sitting on the fence, you're doing more harm than good to all the noobs and and the entire community by not taking a stand. It could appear as if you're playing politician.
It reads to me as if you're not willing to take a stand. You say you need more "proof". There are people such as your self BigK and several sources that have been around for a very long time because they have integrity. There isn't people or groups of people trying to undermine you or the long time sources. It can't be done because they have integrity and have others with integrity backing them up. They don't need hired guns that run around shilling such as we've seen happen here. The WP mercenaries are relentless.
If I've offended you, Millard, that was not my intention. It's frustration just I as assume you're seeing in BigK.

biggerben, I'm never offended by anyone who is honest and straightforward with me. Actually, you comments were so respectful and complimentary, I owe you a big thank you

You've articulated your frustration very well. I don't know if my answer will satisfy you but I hope it clarifies my approach.

I don't approve or disapprove of sources as a manner of principle. So, I'm not going to rubber stamp a consensus view on any company.

What I will do is facilitate examination of the specific behaviors by which various entities conduct business. Based on the information presented, I will allow members to make their judgments about whether to do business with the company.

What about WP in particular? My take: There have been many fair criticisms but sometimes they've been demonized. Their internet marketing is annoying and spammy. They've made various demonstrably false claims. They've implied their shop is FDA-approved and all their products are US-FDA approved. I don't think any FDA approves internet pharmacies and the US-FDA doesn't approve pharmaceuticals imported from overseas (even if made by Organon, Schering, etc). Customer service does not appear to be an issue based on observation that complaints are rarely by customers but usually by non-customers warning about marketing methods and claims. Their prices are very high but price is relative to the consumer. I don't think WP is the owner of AP. Therefore, I consider my opinion of AP a separate issue.

As you can see, I don't necessarily agree with the consensus and my opinion is more nuanced but still critical. Due to ill will generated by WP marketing, I think some people will assume the worst on little evidence and others may go farther and do whatever they can to deter newbies from buying anything from WP. I don't do this. I present my opinion based on what can be reasonably substantiated.

 

[Bigkarch]

no hostility milliard..just a difference in board security and what is allowed on boards....but my mentality is different than yours in what should be allowed,,,.I mean you went from the old meso and back in the late 90's to early 2000's, with a open source forum..then banned all talk about sources I guess due to ORD..and you even said rick collins your legal advisor said not have an open source forum, then voila you have one...why the change and why the change in values......are you trying to keep meso up as a popular board, as it has lost many, many, many vets and old timers..and you have to see that.....and I still claim meso as my mother board....and I am one of very few vets that still come around....but I have to say, i feel you dont care about us vets that stick around....as long as newbies keeps this board running

 

[Millard]

Re: Re: Asia pharm and BD busted???

no hostility milliard..just a difference in board security and what is allowed on boards....but my mentality is different than yours in what should be allowed,,,.I mean you went from the old meso and back in the late 90's to early 2000's, with a open source forum..then banned all talk about sources I guess due to ORD..and you even said rick collins your legal advisor said not have an open source forum, then voila you have one...why the change and why the change in values......are you trying to keep meso up as a popular board, as it has lost many, many, many vets and old timers..and you have to see that.....and I still claim meso as my mother board....and I am one of very few vets that still come around....but I have to say, i feel you dont care about us vets that stick around....as long as newbies keeps this board running

I never abandoned the vets you speak of. They left meso. MESO is always here for them when they decide to return.

I know you like to call meso a 'source board' but I don't consider it such and it's never been my goal. I think people should have the ability to honestly discuss this aspect of the subculture. But as you've seen, I have no interest in telling people where to buy or where not to buy.

I have assumed many of the vets are drawn to the forums that are primarily dedicated to sourcing for whatever reason.

MESO is focused on education. Maybe some vets think they are too advanced to benefit and that meso is only for newbies. But I think they would be pleasantly surprised with the scope of information found on the site. And I am not talking about just the forum

Why would you think I don't want old timers to come around?

 

[Bigkarch]

I never abandoned the vets you speak of. They left meso. MESO is always here for them when they decide to return.

I know you like to call meso a 'source board' but I don't consider it such and it's never been my goal. I think people should have the ability to honestly discuss this aspect of the subculture. But as you've seen, I have no interest in telling people where to buy or where not to buy.

I have assumed many of the vets are drawn to the forums that are primarily dedicated to sourcing for whatever reason.

MESO is focused on education. Maybe some vets think they are too advanced to benefit and that meso is only for newbies. But I think they would be pleasantly surprised with the scope of information found on the site. And I am not talking about just the forum

Why would you think I don't want old timers to come around?

why do you think they dont????????

 

[Bigkarch]

I have assumed many of the vets are drawn to the forums that are primarily dedicated to sourcing for whatever reason.

no you are wrong....

 

[Millard]

I am asking you

 

[mugzy]

There are many reason people are drawn to one forum or another. What is happening is there are new forums going live weekly in this niche and new admins simply invite and recycle members from forum to forum, it takes some real thought and creativity to keep members interested and keep them from moving on. There are many challenges to a forum owner.....

 

[PillarofBalance]

Millard you say that you don't approve or disapprove of sources out of principle.

I see the complete refusal to take a stand against WP/AP for example as a lack of principle.

I'm not a Vet of the boards like what BK is referring to. But I do staff two boards and am always looking out for our members. WP registered and one of the boards I refer to and Lizard King banned him in under 2 minutes.

WP is simply preying on the ignorant and unexperienced. And they have the money to buy up board space and get the negative comments deleted.

Not here thankfully and I certainly give you some credit for allowing me to call then out at every opportunity.

But what harm would it cause for you to ban the WP shills that make no positive contribution to your board?

 

[Millard]

Re: Re: Asia pharm and BD busted???

Millard you say that you don't approve or disapprove of sources out of principle.

I see the complete refusal to take a stand against WP/AP for example as a lack of principle.

I'm not a Vet of the boards like what BK is referring to. But I do staff two boards and am always looking out for our members. WP registered and one of the boards I refer to and Lizard King banned him in under 2 minutes.

WP is simply preying on the ignorant and unexperienced. And they have the money to buy up board space and get the negative comments deleted.

Not here thankfully and I certainly give you some credit for allowing me to call then out at every opportunity.

But what harm would it cause for you to ban the WP shills that make no positive contribution to your board?

I have taken a stand. See a summary of stance in this thread. Ironically, it's out of principle that I am not censoring this forum. The overwhelming negative response to wp posts will be far more effective at protecting newbies than censorship. I find it surprising than any could even begin to make a case that the subforum is not effectively accomplishing this.

 

[Bigkarch]

I am asking you

milliard when I joined in 1999 and i dont think another member has been here longer than me, it was very informative and wild....the source forum drew most of your audience but with that some good people, I still know to this day, like Mugzy, the scammer police, lol.....then I got my modship here and served meso for about 5 yrs....it was as home milliard..a home of info and mods that been there done that...IMO the best times on these boards were with you and meso.....I belong to some great boards and some of the best vets and old timers around...Meso doesnt seem like home anymore...you have two doctors on panel and they are great... but no mods that are bodybuilders or powerlifters that been there done that....but I have to say, (even though I am very educated and hold a law degree) meso has become more of who " who is more intelligent and articulate me our you" (not speaking of you and me), more of a debate than real home town talking....a family....that is what us vets want and need...family and security....

 

[Bigkarch]

I have taken a stand. See a summary of stance in this thread. Ironically, it's out of principle that I am not censoring this forum. The overwhelming negative response to wp posts will be far more effective at protecting newbies than censorship. I find it surprising than any could even begin to make a case that the subforum is not effectively accomplishing this.

no its not milliard...sorry...many newbies see the adds and scum like
WP/AP and matthew jasper that lie and say they have great gear and deliver....they will take that chance...and get burned..can I ask you why you changed your mind to one day rick collins said dont allow source talk to now, why you allow it...

 

[Millard]

milliard when I joined in 1999 and i dont think another member has been here longer than me, it was very informative and wild....the source forum drew most of your audience but with that some good people, I still know to this day, like Mugzy, the scammer police, lol.....then I got my modship here and served meso for about 5 yrs....it was as home milliard..a home of info and mods that been there done that...IMO the best times on these boards were with you and meso.....I belong to some great boards and some of the best vets and old timers around...Meso doesnt seem like home anymore...you have two doctors on panel and they are great... but no mods that are bodybuilders or powerlifters that been there done that....but I have to say, (even though I am very educated and hold a law degree) meso has become more of who " who is more intelligent and articulate me our you" (not speaking of you and me), more of a debate than real home town talking....a family....that is what us vets want and need...family and security....

I hear you on this, Bigkarch. Thanks for the feedback. "Community-building" is always fun. It's something, like Mugzy says, that needs some creativity and thought. I'm hoping meso provides a knowledge-driven environment for members interesting in learning more about various topics - but I don't want anyone to feel like it's a zero sum game with winners and losers, a pissing contest of who know's the most. That's not what the forum is about. If it's coming across as such, we have work to do here. I also hope it encourages a "community" of individuals that respect differences and individual thought while avoiding mob mentality seen on so many other forums. Again, if I'm coming up short, I'm hoping to work towards a better community.

 

[Millard]

no its not milliard...sorry...many newbies see the adds and scum like
WP/AP and matthew jasper that lie and say they have great gear and deliver....they will take that chance...and get burned..

I don't think you know that for a fact. I haven't seen anyone complain about being scammed. Of course, I don't know for a fact that it is preventing newbies from being scammed either.

To me, it would seem logical that 1 scammer post followed by 20 members saying he is a scammer would be a damn effective deterrent.

If the scammer starts 20 threads with each followed by 20 negative feedbacks, that is 400 warnings to counter the 20 dubious posts.

How is this not a good thing?

Do newbies NOT come to forums to seek feedback on sources? Do they ignore the overwhelming amount of negative feedback? They may be newbies but I'd have to give them more credit than that.

 

[Millard]

can I ask you why you changed your mind to one day rick collins said dont allow source talk to now, why you allow it...

The classifieds section was closed years ago (8-9 years). I don't think Rick had anything to do with that decision - at least not main reason, I don't doubt he warned me against it. Quite honestly I was sick of the denial of service attacks, the threats against myself and my family and all the other bullshit I had to deal related to the classifieds section.

I recall Rick being more concerned about banner advertising for steroid pharmacies. And I haven't advertised any pharmacy-related source banners on this forum in over 4 years. As far as US law concerned, the main legal issue involves collecting money from advertising ecommerce websites that have a point of sale for scheduled drugs. That's been explicitly illegal per amendment to CS Act for about 4 years.

I reopened an "underground section" here on meso in response to many members disenchantment with popular forums that allowed source-talk. The big complaint - mods/admins were deleting/censoring/editing posts threads to selectively protect certain sources. So, I saw a need for a subforum to allow members to voice their grievances without fear of reprisal.

I've always reserved the right to close down this subforum. It's already pissed off numerous sources because I've adamantly refused to delete negative feedback. Take a look at the extent of the negative feedback and you can imagine the emails I'm getting. So far, this subforum appears to piss off only a small number of members because it is uncensored and I'm sticking by my principle of not deleting and keeping it totally transparent. But if most members don't think it serves a important role in the community, I have no interest in wasting my time on it.

 

[Bigkarch]

I don't think you know that for a fact. I haven't seen anyone complain about being scammed. Of course, I don't know for a fact that it is preventing newbies from being scammed either.

To me, it would seem logical that 1 scammer post followed by 20 members saying he is a scammer would be a damn effective deterrent.

If the scammer starts 20 threads with each followed by 20 negative feedbacks, that is 400 warnings to counter the 20 dubious posts.

How is this not a good thing?

Do newbies NOT come to forums to seek feedback on sources? Do they ignore the overwhelming amount of negative feedback? They may be newbies but I'd have to give them more credit than that.

rob peter to pay paul.....lets allow scum and scammers advertise just so some people can say they are no good....that does as much good as tobacco warnings on cigarettes....hey it dangerous...dont smoke.....but lets here from our members who have lung cancer....to show you how Marlboro is dangerous..btw here is there website where you can order from them.....

 

[Pericles]

no its not milliard...sorry...many newbies see the adds and scum like
WP/AP and matthew jasper that lie and say they have great gear and deliver....they will take that chance...and get burned..can I ask you why you changed your mind to one day rick collins said dont allow source talk to now, why you allow it...

The problem is, once we/MESO start banning, where does it stop? That is the problem on other boards, and the result is that mods, with a precedence of banning whomever they want, end up banning discussions that interfere w/ their bottom line. So mods end up getting kickbacks and banning anything and everything that interferes w/ their gravy trains.

Millard does ban shils who come on here and start PMing members, but that is very hard to catch.

The way things work now, shills like MJ come on, and we all pile on w/ our criticism and pointing out that their claims are ridiculous (FDA approved UGL is my favorite).

My point is, when we ban shills for statements on our open forums, we start a process where the ban hammer can get abused. Now PMs are another thing, since they are not open to the rest of us. As it is now, IMO we must allow shills like MJ, but make sure our criticisms come fast and hard.

 

[Bigkarch]

sorry milliard thats not security..if wp was banned when they should have and matthew jasper was banned when he should have been...some newbs wouldnt have been taken.. that is board security......and admin that cares, not about the 1st amend solely but about our community....

 

[Bigkarch]

The problem is, once we/MESO start banning, where does it stop? That is the problem on other boards, and the result is that mods, with a precedence of banning whomever they want, end up banning discussions that interfere w/ their bottom line. So mods end up getting kickbacks and banning anything and everything that interferes w/ their gravy trains.

Millard does ban shils who come on here and start PMing members, but that is very hard to catch.

The way things work now, shills like MJ come on, and we all pile on w/ our criticism and pointing out that their claims are ridiculous (FDA approved UGL is my favorite).

My point is, when we ban shills for statements on our open forums, we start a process where the ban hammer can get abused. Now PMs are another thing, since they are not open to the rest of us. As it is now, IMO we must allow shills like MJ, but make sure our criticisms come fast and hard.

you seem to be talking about some mods who dont know there ass from a hole in the ground...given that you are right....some mods dont deserve to be mods and their voice is just shit..so given that, thats the admins fault for giving shit heads modship....thats the trouble of some of these boards...mods and admin are shit heads....BUT, those boards do exist on what I'm talking about...

 

[Bigkarch]

you ask pericles where do we stop on the bannning...well on known scammers, liers, and those that threatened other members...thats where we ban....do yo not agree