[astro Labs] Bloodwork 9-30-2014

[runner-runner]

Testosterone dose-response relationships
in healthy young men

http://www.afboard.com/library/AS-dose-study.pdf

A real scientific study with doses ranging from 25mg per week to 600mg per week.

Searching "bloodwork" in the cycle log forum the first 3 results were
3956 on 750mg test E from inkandmuscle
2195 on 500mg test E from 03xx52
2193 on 600mg test E from bkent504

Take it or leave it. Hard to refute a clinical study, but some will. I am looking at this from a statistical power and confidence interval standpoint. It is hard with such a small sample size, but more of the available tests do not suggest 8-10x to be the norm. With that I think too many people are quick to say you most be underdosed. Could this be the case with UGLs, of course. On the same note I would think you have to accept the premise that the guidelines you are using are set too high at some point.

 

[johnnyBALLZ]

Testosterone dose-response relationships
in healthy young men

http://www.afboard.com/library/AS-dose-study.pdf

A real scientific study with doses ranging from 25mg per week to 600mg per week.

Searching "bloodwork" in the cycle log forum the first 3 results were
3956 on 750mg test E from inkandmuscle
2195 on 500mg test E from 03xx52
2193 on 600mg test E from bkent504

Take it or leave it. Hard to refute a clinical study, but some will. I am looking at this from a statistical power and confidence interval standpoint. It is hard with such a small sample size, but more of the available tests do not suggest 8-10x to be the norm. With that I think too many people are quick to say you most be underdosed. Could this be the case with UGLs, of course. On the same note I would think you have to accept the premise that the guidelines you are using are set too high at some point.

Is that the study that shows TT one week after pinning??

 

[runner-runner]

@johnnyBALLZ yeah, it is one week which is the lowest level possible.

 

[johnnyBALLZ]

There was a thread a few months ago here on this same topic, worth a read:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/math-question-about-test-and-blood-levels.134356260/

This was Scally's response to that study:

___

Thanks for the link. Do you realize, probably NOT, that the study supports ALL that I have posted and NONE of what you posted!!!

We will ignore your already backtracking from "At some point, large increases in dose produce negligible increases in serum concentrations" to "I may have mispoken earlier. Maybe I can clarify. The effect of doubling the dose does not seem to double the serum concentration. Mathematically,"
You went from "negligible" increases to have "mispoken" [sic].

But, still WRONG. There is a linear relationship between the dose administered and the serum level. You even demonstrate this fact by the values posted taken directly from the study.

weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone enanthate for 20 wk ... graded doses of testosterone resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 253, 306, 542, 1,345, and 2,370 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively.

Hint: 2,370/1,345 = 1.76; 1,345/542 = 2.48; 542/306 = 1.77; 306/253 = 1.21

Do you know why one would not expect a linear relationship at the lower end?
And, at the upper end with even greater doses, the linear relationship might prove even greater?
Regardless, if you plot this, one obtains a linear relationship. [And, this even comes with a surprise (later).]

Further, the study supports the 10X rough estimate.

Hint: "nadir"

Now, if one was to check for PCT or UG would it be of import to know the timing of the test to the drug administration?

Another point, what do you have to offer or propose as a method? I did not read anything except the obvious costly analysis, which is beyond almost all and as I will show later not necessary.

There is another point I will address later.

 

[runner-runner]

I can only go by the small sample size on here, and the few people in real life I have saw results from. Not saying I am right, but I can not ignore more people end up under the 10x from what I have saw. 10x is quoted there (although as a rough estimate) not 8-10x.
Could this be that most UGLs are under-dosed because of raws, I fully think that is a possibility from the mass specs posted. However, from a scientific standpoint I hope you understand I cannot accept a premise when the majority of results I have saw points to a different conclusion.

 

[devildog93]

I assume that 90% purity from a ugl would be an outlier and very optimistic. 70% is probably closer to it. The problem with this is that we are seeing more and more cost-cutting, scamming, and unscrupulous business practices take this as low as 20% by the time it reaches the consumer.

It wasn't that long ago that someone had norma amps tested that came in a 50mg where they were supposed to be 250mg. Now tell me that wouldn't totally fuck up a cycle. You plan to be on a gram and you end up on 200mg and gain 3 pounds that cycle. Yea, that would be a pisser.

I am always going to lean towards the end user when looking at guys' bloodwork. If something comes up under the 8x rule then i'm going to call it crap i wouldn't use, nor would i recommend it.

 

[getswole89]

I assume that 90% purity from a ugl would be an outlier and very optimistic. 70% is probably closer to it. The problem with this is that we are seeing more and more cost-cutting, scamming, and unscrupulous business practices take this as low as 20% by the time it reaches the consumer.

It wasn't that long ago that someone had norma amps tested that came in a 50mg where they were supposed to be 250mg. Now tell me that wouldn't totally fuck up a cycle. You plan to be on a gram and you end up on 200mg and gain 3 pounds that cycle. Yea, that would be a pisser.

I am always going to lean towards the end user when looking at guys' bloodwork. If something comes up under the 8x rule then i'm going to call it crap i wouldn't use, nor would i recommend it.

we're the first bloods you posted from geneza pharma from naps?

 

[Girpy]

From personal experience On Watson test cyp 200mg per week (split in two shots) and 1mg adex per week also split in half, I hit right around 750 test and 25 estrogen 3 days after last pin. And this is consistent every bloodwork

 

[devildog93]

This is to the link of the guy taking geneza: http://www.eroids.com/pics/5-weeks-on-geneza-test-e-7540

Make what you want from that. Seems to fit in the 8x rule.

The problem here is that i don't know these guys at all and haven't kept up with the history on most of them, so i don't know what i think of their word. This obviously is not me endorsing any one brand/source, just an example of what i wish we had more of here.

As we get our bloodwork compiled from numerous users that people know on this board we can start weeding the bad houses out so to speak. A couple of strikes and we can put them on the shit list. For example, i do some brand x gear and come up with bloods that seem to be 50%. Another guy gets bloodwork done with the same or near results and we have data supporting the original data. At this point i would run the supplier off and put him on the shit list.

 

[conquistador]

Organon showed that even the site of injection, and concentration affects the pharmacokinetic profile of the drug. Glutes and concentrated gear peaking faster...600mg of test e,weekly, should be within the range of 2900-3200ng/dL before the next injection, mid cycle (from the studies ive read). Meaning dper's values are a bit low for the amount hes taking; my bad, i said the opposite.

 

[conquistador]

1000mg of testosterone cypionate should be about 5540ng/dL the day after injection .

Only on the first week, by the 5th wk it should be nearing twice that amount, the day after pinning...my bad

As to what constitutes the other 30-40% of impure gear, I believe is other "incomplete" steroids that didnt manage to turn into the target roide, if the chemists were the mediocre types, which i believe they are. Otherwise, god knows what they cut it with, it would be interesting to know

 

[dper726]

There was a thread a few months ago here on this same topic, worth a read:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/math-question-about-test-and-blood-levels.134356260/

This was Scally's response to that study:

Just read this thread. Great pool of knowledge there. Good info